LIS History - User contributions [en]

All-Russian Institute for Scientific and Technical Information

2026-02-28T19:36:17Z

Jacques Ducloy:

[[fr:Institut panrusse d'information scientifique et technique]]
[[File:Viniti.JPG|thumb|Main building]]
'''VINITI''' (ВИНИТИ ; '''All-Russian Institute for Scientific and Technical Information'''; Всероссийский институт научной и технической информации; formerly '''All-Union Institute for Scientific and Technical Information''') is a subsidiary of the [[Russian Academy of Sciences]] devoted to gathering scientific and technical information from sources throughout the world and disseminating this information to the Russian scientific community.<ref name=Of>{{cite web|title=О ВИНИТИ РАН|url=http://www2.viniti.ru/29-about-viniti|website=Official site of VINITI|access-date=2015-07-11|archive-date=2017-05-07|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170507054614/http://www2.viniti.ru/29-about-viniti|url-status=dead}}</ref><ref name=Cherny>{{cite book|last1=Cherny|first1=Arkady|title=Всероссийский институт научной и технической информации: 50 лет служения науке|date=2005|publisher=VINITI|url=http://www.viniti.ru/download/russian/VINITI.50.Year.2005.pdf|archive-date=2014-08-04|access-date=2015-07-11|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140804124238/http://www.viniti.ru/download/russian/VINITI.50.Year.2005.pdf|url-status=dead}}</ref>

All-Russian Institute for Scientific and Technical Information

2026-02-27T13:41:46Z

Jacques Ducloy:

[[fr:Institut panrusse d'information scientifique et technique]]
[[File:Viniti.JPG|thumb|Main building]]
'''VINITI''' (ВИНИТИ ; '''All-Russian Institute for Scientific and Technical Information'''; {{langx|ru|Всероссийский институт научной и технической информации}}; formerly '''All-Union Institute for Scientific and Technical Information''') is a subsidiary of the [[Russian Academy of Sciences]] devoted to gathering scientific and technical information from sources throughout the world and disseminating this information to the Russian scientific community.<ref name=Of>{{cite web|title=О ВИНИТИ РАН|url=http://www2.viniti.ru/29-about-viniti|website=Official site of VINITI|access-date=2015-07-11|archive-date=2017-05-07|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170507054614/http://www2.viniti.ru/29-about-viniti|url-status=dead}}</ref><ref name=Cherny>{{cite book|last1=Cherny|first1=Arkady|title=Всероссийский институт научной и технической информации: 50 лет служения науке|date=2005|publisher=VINITI|url=http://www.viniti.ru/download/russian/VINITI.50.Year.2005.pdf|archive-date=2014-08-04|access-date=2015-07-11|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140804124238/http://www.viniti.ru/download/russian/VINITI.50.Year.2005.pdf|url-status=dead}}</ref>

All-Russian Institute for Scientific and Technical Information

2026-02-27T13:41:03Z

Jacques Ducloy:

[[fr:Institut panrusse d'information scientifique et technique]]
[[File:Viniti.JPG|thumb|Main building]]
'''VINITI''' ({{langx|ru|ВИНИТИ}}; '''All-Russian Institute for Scientific and Technical Information'''; {{langx|ru|Всероссийский институт научной и технической информации}}; formerly '''All-Union Institute for Scientific and Technical Information''') is a subsidiary of the [[Russian Academy of Sciences]] devoted to gathering scientific and technical information from sources throughout the world and disseminating this information to the Russian scientific community.<ref name=Of>{{cite web|title=О ВИНИТИ РАН|url=http://www2.viniti.ru/29-about-viniti|website=Official site of VINITI|access-date=2015-07-11|archive-date=2017-05-07|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170507054614/http://www2.viniti.ru/29-about-viniti|url-status=dead}}</ref><ref name=Cherny>{{cite book|last1=Cherny|first1=Arkady|title=Всероссийский институт научной и технической информации: 50 лет служения науке|date=2005|publisher=VINITI|url=http://www.viniti.ru/download/russian/VINITI.50.Year.2005.pdf|archive-date=2014-08-04|access-date=2015-07-11|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140804124238/http://www.viniti.ru/download/russian/VINITI.50.Year.2005.pdf|url-status=dead}}</ref>

All-Russian Institute for Scientific and Technical Information

2026-02-27T13:40:34Z

Jacques Ducloy:

[[fr:Institut panrusse d'information scientifique et technique]]
{{Short description|Scientific information institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences}}
[[File:Viniti.JPG|thumb|Main building]]
'''VINITI''' ({{langx|ru|ВИНИТИ}}; '''All-Russian Institute for Scientific and Technical Information'''; {{langx|ru|Всероссийский институт научной и технической информации}}; formerly '''All-Union Institute for Scientific and Technical Information''') is a subsidiary of the [[Russian Academy of Sciences]] devoted to gathering scientific and technical information from sources throughout the world and disseminating this information to the Russian scientific community.<ref name=Of>{{cite web|title=О ВИНИТИ РАН|url=http://www2.viniti.ru/29-about-viniti|website=Official site of VINITI|access-date=2015-07-11|archive-date=2017-05-07|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20170507054614/http://www2.viniti.ru/29-about-viniti|url-status=dead}}</ref><ref name=Cherny>{{cite book|last1=Cherny|first1=Arkady|title=Всероссийский институт научной и технической информации: 50 лет служения науке|date=2005|publisher=VINITI|url=http://www.viniti.ru/download/russian/VINITI.50.Year.2005.pdf|archive-date=2014-08-04|access-date=2015-07-11|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140804124238/http://www.viniti.ru/download/russian/VINITI.50.Year.2005.pdf|url-status=dead}}</ref>

All-Russian Institute for Scientific and Technical Information

2026-02-27T13:39:25Z

Jacques Ducloy: Created page with "fr:Institut panrusse d'information scientifique et technique"

[[fr:Institut panrusse d'information scientifique et technique]]

Chemical Abstracts Service

2024-01-15T21:42:29Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* See also */

'''Chemical Abstracts Service''' ('''CAS''') is a division of the [[American Chemical Society]]. It is a source of chemical information and is located in [[Columbus, Ohio]], [[United States]].

==See also==
{{Wicri see|reference=Americas}}
;External links:
* [[wikipedia:{{PAGENAME}}|Wikipedia]]

[[fr:Chemical Abstracts Service]]

Chemical Abstracts Service

2024-01-15T21:40:14Z

Jacques Ducloy:

'''Chemical Abstracts Service''' ('''CAS''') is a division of the [[American Chemical Society]]. It is a source of chemical information and is located in [[Columbus, Ohio]], [[United States]].

==See also==
;External links:
* [[wikipedia:{{PAGENAME}}|Wikipedia]]

[[fr:Chemical Abstracts Service]]

Chemical Abstracts Service

2024-01-15T21:39:28Z

Jacques Ducloy:

'''Chemical Abstracts Service''' ('''CAS''') is a division of the [[American Chemical Society]]. It is a source of chemical information and is located in [[Columbus, Ohio]], [[United States]].

==See also==
;Liens externes:
* [[wikipedia:{{PAGENAME}}|Wikipédia]]

[[fr:Chemical Abstracts Service]]

Chemical Abstracts Service

2024-01-15T21:38:20Z

Jacques Ducloy:

Chemical Abstracts Service

2024-01-15T21:23:56Z

Jacques Ducloy: Created page with "'''Chemical Abstracts Service''' ('''CAS''') is a division of the American Chemical Society. It is a source of chemical information and is located in Columbus, Ohio, [..."

Tunis Med (2007) Ben Abdelaziz

2021-07-01T20:31:26Z

Jacques Ducloy:

{{Page title for an article
|title=[[Has title::Bibliometric profile of Tunisians medicals publications indexed in Medline from 2000 to 2003 part 2: social relevance.]]}}{{Bibliobox right|
;Authors:[[Has first author::Ahmed Ben Abdelaziz]]{{Link to affiliation|l1=1}}, [[Has author::Mouna Abdelali]], [[Has author::Abdelaziz Khmakhem]], [[Has author::Hassen Ghannem]]
;Affiliations:
* {{Affiliation anchor|l=1}} Faculté de Médecine Ibn El Jazzar -de Sousse, Tunisie.
;In:[[Is in journal::La Tunisie medicale (journal)|La Tunisie medicale]], ([[Publishing date::2007]])
;On line:
}}
__TOC__
{{Clr}}
==Abstract==
{{Begin article body}}
;OBJECTIVE:
This work, which is part of the medical documentary wakefulness, tries to evaluate the social relevance of the Tunisian medical publications indexed in the Medline's database.

;METHODS:
This descriptive study covered the whole of the articles indexed in "Medline" between 2000 and 2003. We retained the medical papers whose author's address was a Tunisian health structure of either medical care or education with the first and / or the last author was a Tunisian doctor. The social relevance of the publications was measured by the agreement level of their content, studies through the "Major Essential Key Words" with the death causes and the morbidity global charge components, made by the World Health Organisation in its "report about the health in the world" in 2003. A "Major Essential Key Word" is a word chosen among the word's list "MeSH Major Topic" proposed by the bibliographic notice of Medline's database to summarize the essential topic of the article.

;RESULTS:
The 1248 articles eligible to this study, have been indexed in "Medline" by "MeSH Major Topic" words using 3471 indexation lines. Among the "Top 20" list of the "Major Essential Key Words" only 9 themes were concordant with the community health needs, including four in relation with the epidemiologic "pre transition" epidemiology (tuberculosis, pregnancy complications, lung diseases, anemia) and five in connection with the epidemiologic "post transition" epidemiology (diabetes mellitus, breast neoplasms, leukemia, cardiovascular diseases, multiple myeloma).

;CONCLUSION:
What emerges from this study is that medical research in Tunisia isn't concordant enough with the country epidemiologic priorities and public health national programs . The social relevance should be the principal selection criterion in the public financing of the research projects.
{{End article body}}
==See also==
;External links:
* [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17424702/ Link toward PubMed]
[[Category:Bibliometrics (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Community Health Services (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Epidemiology (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Humans (MeSH)]]
[[Category:MEDLINE (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Public Health (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Social Change (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Social Responsibility (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Tunisia (MeSH)]]
[[Category:World Health Organization (MeSH)]]
__SHOWFACTBOX__
[[fr:Tunis Med (2007) Ben Abdelaziz]]

Tunis Med (2018) Zemni

2021-07-01T15:17:06Z

Jacques Ducloy: Created page with "{{Page title for an article |title=Has title::Bibliometric profile of Tunisian m..."

{{Page title for an article
|title=[[Has title::Bibliometric profile of Tunisian medical publications written in English and indexed in Medline.]]}}{{Bibliobox right|
;Authors:[[Has first author::Imen Zemni]], [[Has author::Mouna Safer]], [[Has author::Imen Horrigue]], [[Has author::Asma Ben Abdelaziz]], [[Has author::Sonia Hammami]], [[Has author::Ahmed Ben Abdelaziz]]{{Link to affiliation|l1=1}}
;Affiliations:
* {{Affiliation anchor|l=1}} (null)
;In:[[Is in journal::La Tunisie medicale (journal)|La Tunisie medicale]], ([[Publishing date::2018]])
;On line:
}}
__TOC__
{{Clr}}
==Abstract==
{{Begin article body}}
;BACKGROUND:
English is becoming nowadays the universal language of science. Rresearch published in English can be considered as a bibliometric indicator of the scientific productivity.

;AIM:
We sought to describe the evolution of the Tunisian medical publications written in English over the period from 2004 to 2014.

;METHODS:
Medline's database was consulted using a research query associating the names of the country and the main university cities both in French and in English. The articles with a Tunisian health affiliation were retained but the articles of dentistry, pharmacy and non-medical fields were not included.

;RESULTS:
We counted 979 English language Tunisian medical articles published during the three tracer years of the study: 2004, 2009 and 2014. The increase rate was about 38% between 2004 and 2014. The contribution of medical fields in English language publications was important but showed a clear decrease over time. The retrieved articles did not have the same distribution according to the specialties and the institutions. The distribution according to the journals showed that these articles were mainly published by foreign journals with an increasing impact factors between 2004 and 2014.

;CONCLUSION:
The English language Tunisian medical productivity had shown an important increase over time but many specialties and institutions still not enough implicated in this production.Therefore, increasing research funding, improving the physicians' research methodology and English writing capacities are likely needed to improve the Tunisian medical output.
{{End article body}}
==See also==
;External links:
* [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30430484/ Link toward PubMed]
[[Category:Abstracting and Indexing (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Bibliometrics (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Biomedical Research (organization & administration)]]
[[Category:Biomedical Research (statistics & numerical data)]]
[[Category:Efficiency (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Humans (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Language (MeSH)]]
[[Category:MEDLINE (statistics & numerical data)]]
[[Category:Medical Writing (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Publishing (organization & administration)]]
[[Category:Publishing (statistics & numerical data)]]
[[Category:Tunisia (epidemiology)]]
__SHOWFACTBOX__
[[fr:Tunis Med (2018) Zemni]]

Tunis Med (2007) Ben Abdelaziz

2021-07-01T14:33:24Z

Jacques Ducloy: Created page with "{{Page title for an article |title=Has title::[Bibliometric profile of T..."

{{Page title for an article
|title=[[Has title::[Bibliometric profile of Tunisians medicals publications indexed in Medline from 2000 to 2003 part 2: social relevance].]]}}{{Bibliobox right|
;Authors:[[Has first author::Ahmed Ben Abdelaziz]]{{Link to affiliation|l1=1}}, [[Has author::Mouna Abdelali]], [[Has author::Abdelaziz Khmakhem]], [[Has author::Hassen Ghannem]]
;Affiliations:
* {{Affiliation anchor|l=1}} Faculté de Médecine Ibn El Jazzar -de Sousse, Tunisie.
;In:[[Is in journal::La Tunisie medicale (journal)|La Tunisie medicale]], ([[Publishing date::2007]])
;On line:
}}
__TOC__
{{Clr}}
==Abstract==
{{Begin article body}}
;OBJECTIVE:
This work, which is part of the medical documentary wakefulness, tries to evaluate the social relevance of the Tunisian medical publications indexed in the Medline's database.

;METHODS:
This descriptive study covered the whole of the articles indexed in "Medline" between 2000 and 2003. We retained the medical papers whose author's address was a Tunisian health structure of either medical care or education with the first and / or the last author was a Tunisian doctor. The social relevance of the publications was measured by the agreement level of their content, studies through the "Major Essential Key Words" with the death causes and the morbidity global charge components, made by the World Health Organisation in its "report about the health in the world" in 2003. A "Major Essential Key Word" is a word chosen among the word's list "MeSH Major Topic" proposed by the bibliographic notice of Medline's database to summarize the essential topic of the article.

;RESULTS:
The 1248 articles eligible to this study, have been indexed in "Medline" by "MeSH Major Topic" words using 3471 indexation lines. Among the "Top 20" list of the "Major Essential Key Words" only 9 themes were concordant with the community health needs, including four in relation with the epidemiologic "pre transition" epidemiology (tuberculosis, pregnancy complications, lung diseases, anemia) and five in connection with the epidemiologic "post transition" epidemiology (diabetes mellitus, breast neoplasms, leukemia, cardiovascular diseases, multiple myeloma).

;CONCLUSION:
What emerges from this study is that medical research in Tunisia isn't concordant enough with the country epidemiologic priorities and public health national programs . The social relevance should be the principal selection criterion in the public financing of the research projects.
{{End article body}}
==See also==
;External links:
* [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17424702/ Link toward PubMed]
[[Category:Bibliometrics (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Community Health Services (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Epidemiology (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Humans (MeSH)]]
[[Category:MEDLINE (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Public Health (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Social Change (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Social Responsibility (MeSH)]]
[[Category:Tunisia (MeSH)]]
[[Category:World Health Organization (MeSH)]]
__SHOWFACTBOX__
[[fr:Tunis Med (2007) Ben Abdelaziz]]

Main Page

2021-05-31T15:15:43Z

Jacques Ducloy:

{{Wicri box|text=<center><big>'''Welcome to Wicri/History of Library and Information Sciences'''</big></center>}}
{|width=100%
|-
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|This wiki is only designed for testing multilingual issues.
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__NOTOC__
{{clr}}
{{Begin 2 columns}}
{{H2 Wicri|About Nathalie Dusoulier}}
* [[Interview with Nathalie Dusoulier by W. Boyd Rayward in 2000]]

{{Skip 2 columns}}
{{H2 Wicri|The wiki Wicri/History of LIS}}
This wiki is mainly used for feasibility tests. Its informational content is still very weak.
{{End 2 columns}}

[[fr:Accueil]]

[[fr:Accueil]]

Main Page

2021-05-31T15:14:14Z

Jacques Ducloy:

{{Wicri box|text=<center><big>'''Welcome to Wicri/History of Library and Information Sciences'''</big></center>}}
{|width=100%
|-
|[[File:YBC-7289-OBV-labeled.jpg|300px|left|link= YBC 7289]]
|This wiki is only designed for testing multilingual issues.
|
{|style="background:#ccccff;-moz-border-radius:0.8em; -webkit-border-radius:0.5em;" align=right
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|width=200px|{{Wicri global map (en)
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|size 5 = 18
|size 6 = 17
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|-
|width=200px|{{Wicri network navbox}}
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__NOTOC__
{{clr}}
{{Begin 2 columns}}
{{H2 Wicri|Around Irish Mass}}

{{Skip 2 columns}}
{{H2 Wicri|The wiki Wicri/History of LIS}}
This wiki is mainly used for feasibility tests. Its informational content is still very weak.
{{End 2 columns}}

[[fr:Accueil]]

[[fr:Accueil]]

Main Page

2021-05-31T15:13:21Z

Jacques Ducloy:

{{Wicri box|text=<center><big>'''Welcome to Wicri/History of Library and Information Sciences'''</big></center>}}
{|width=100%
|-
|[[File:YBC-7289-OBV-labeled.jpg|300px|left|link= YBC 7289]]
|This wiki is only designed for testing multilingual issues.
|
{|style="background:#ccccff;-moz-border-radius:0.8em; -webkit-border-radius:0.5em;" align=right
|-
|width=200px|{{Wicri global map (en)
|map size=280
|size 1 = 32
|size 2 = 26
|size 3 = 24
|size 4 = 22
|size 5 = 18
|size 6 = 17
}}
|-
|width=200px|{{Wicri network navbox}}
|}
|}
__NOTOC__
{{clr}}
{{Begin 2 columns}}
{{H2 Wicri|Around Irish Mass}}

{{Skip 2 columns}}
{{H2 Wicri|The wiki Wicri/Music}}
This wiki is mainly used for feasibility tests. Its informational content is still very weak.
{{End 2 columns}}

[[fr:Accueil]]

[[fr:Accueil]]

Main Page

2021-05-31T15:11:37Z

Jacques Ducloy:

{{Wicri box|text=<center><big>'''Welcome to Wicri/History of Library and Information Sciences'''</big></center>}}
{|width=100%
|-
|[[File:Tomb of Nakht - three musicians.png|155px|link=The three musicians, Tomb of Nakht]]
|This wiki is only designed for testing multilingual issues.
|
{|style="background:#ccccff;-moz-border-radius:0.8em; -webkit-border-radius:0.5em;" align=right
|-
|width=200px|{{Wicri global map (en)
|map size=280
|size 1 = 32
|size 2 = 26
|size 3 = 24
|size 4 = 22
|size 5 = 18
|size 6 = 17
}}
|-
|width=200px|{{Wicri network navbox}}
|}
|}
__NOTOC__
{{clr}}
{{Begin 2 columns}}
{{H2 Wicri|Around Irish Mass}}

{{Skip 2 columns}}
{{H2 Wicri|The wiki Wicri/Music}}
This wiki is mainly used for feasibility tests. Its informational content is still very weak.
{{End 2 columns}}

[[fr:Accueil]]

[[fr:Accueil]]

LIS History:Community portal

2021-05-31T15:06:14Z

Jacques Ducloy: Created page with "==Browsing Wicri== {{Browsing Wicri}} {{Wicri partners}} fr:Histoire de l'IST:Portail communautaire"

==Browsing Wicri==
{{Browsing Wicri}}

{{Wicri partners}}
[[fr:Histoire de l'IST:Portail communautaire]]

Main Page

2021-05-31T14:56:45Z

Jacques Ducloy:

{{Wicri box|text=<center><big>'''Welcome to Wicri/History of Library and Information Sciences'''</big></center>}}
MediaWiki has been installed.

Consult the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Help:Contents User's Guide] for information on using the wiki software.

== Getting started ==
* [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Manual:Configuration_settings Configuration settings list]
* [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Manual:FAQ MediaWiki FAQ]
* [https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-announce MediaWiki release mailing list]
* [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Localisation#Translation_resources Localise MediaWiki for your language]
* [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Manual:Combating_spam Learn how to combat spam on your wiki]
[[fr:Accueil]]

Main Page

2021-05-31T14:47:14Z

Jacques Ducloy:

{{Wicri box|text=<center><big>'''Welcome to Wicri/ ... '''</big></center>}}
MediaWiki has been installed.

Consult the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Help:Contents User's Guide] for information on using the wiki software.

== Getting started ==
* [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Manual:Configuration_settings Configuration settings list]
* [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Manual:FAQ MediaWiki FAQ]
* [https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-announce MediaWiki release mailing list]
* [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Localisation#Translation_resources Localise MediaWiki for your language]
* [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Manual:Combating_spam Learn how to combat spam on your wiki]
[[fr:Accueil]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/CNRS

2021-05-07T13:51:22Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* Educational path */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Education and Early Career==
{{ Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/To French|CNRS#Formation et début de carrière}}
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|01}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Please tell me about your family background and your education.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I was born in Nice, France, to Russian parents. I attended school in Nice.
{{Article body/End}}
===Educational path===
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/To French|CNRS#Parcours éducatif}}
{{Article body/Begin}}
:I studied pharmacology in Marseilles and earned my Ph.D. in pharmacology in Paris. While in Paris, I also studied other related subjects such as biology, serology, and virology at Institut Pasteur.
:I decided to study business administration because of my husband. He has a Ph.D. in political science and a diploma in engineering. I received a diploma in business administration when it began in France—during the first year, but I was not very good because law did not interest me much. I was selected because there were not many scientists studying that. There was only one pharmacologist and one veterinarian.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Were you the only woman in the program?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: No, there were other women.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: When was this?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Around 1960.
:I studied supplementary diplômes (diplomas) in the pharmaceutical industry in order to work in industry; I didn’t want to work in a pharmacy.
{{Article body/End}}

===Car Accident===
{{ Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/To French|CNRS#Accident de voiture}}
{{Article body/Begin}}
:At the end of 1960, I was in a car accident, and stayed in bed for about a year. After that, the doctor said that I could not work standing up for at least three or four years, so I had to find a new job. I had been working in pharmacy doing biological analysis. I didn’t even know what other jobs I was qualified for that wouldn’t require standing.
:Just before my accident, I had found a job at the Laboratoire de la Grange, a pharmaceutical laboratory for the control of drugs. {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|02}}
:Today, I don’t think the subject is that interesting, but, at the time, I was happy there. Then came the accident, which was just terrible.
:My husband and I were in the car with our three children.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Were they hurt as well?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Not really. My husband was hurt; he was pinned in. I was thrown out of the car.
:I decided to put an advertisement in ''Le Monde'' stating, “Doctor of pharmacy with these ''diplômes'', knowing French, English, German, Russian, and Spanish, would like to find a job that doesn’t require standing.”
{{Article body/End}}

==Employment at Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique==
{{ Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/To French|CNRS#Entrée au Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique (CNRS)}}
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: At first, I did not receive a thing. Then, after two weeks, I received a letter from CNRS (Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique) stating that they wanted me to analyze, abstract, and index Russian and German journals in pharmacology, biochemistry, and biophysics. I thought, “That’s stupid.” [laughter] “I could never do that kind of job.” But I decided to go and see what it was like anyway.
:When I arrived at CNRS headquarters, I was horrified! The main office was a large room with people sitting around at desks, as if they were in a classroom. These were people with Ph.D.s and master’s degrees in various disciplines. They told me, “Oh, we want you, absolutely.” They asked me to do some corrections to a manuscript—correct the mistakes. I had never done that before, but I must have done well because they were very happy with that stupid work. [laughter] Then they said, “We want you to start next week.” I responded that I couldn’t because my husband was traveling for his work and I wanted to talk it over with him first. But they said, “If you don’t like it, just leave. No obligation. Your contract will be processed, but that takes two or three months—don’t worry.” So, I gave in and started working there. As it turns out, it was, in fact, quite interesting. The work was slightly difficult. I knew Russian, but they gave me Bulgarian, Polish, and many Czech-related languages. I told them, “I know Russian, not Ukrainian or any of these other ones.” They answered, “Yes, but if you cannot do it, who can?” So I tried and I ended up doing that for a little more than a year.
{{Article body/End}}
===Early indexing methods.===
{{ Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/To French|CNRS#Early indexing methods}}
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Were you preparing abstracts?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I was preparing abstracts and creating indexes or the index matière (subject index). I told myself, “All right, I’ll do this for a while, recover, and then try to do something else.” At that time, Jean Wyart was director of CDST [Centre de Documentation Scientifique et Technique]. His deputy was a high-level, Spanish researcher.
:CDST had several departments. The official director of Bulletin Signalétique, the largest department, was a Spanish man named Dr. Garrids.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|03}}
====Dr. Pierre Brygoo====
:Garrids decided to leave for Spain to continue his research and a researcher from Institut Pasteur called Dr. [Pierre] Brygoo replaced Garrids. Brygoo’s job was to make CDST more fashionable. By more fashionable, I mean to incorporate automation—not the creation of online files or anything like that, but the automation of daily operations. Bulletin Signalétique, as you know, was a very large operation. We were doing half a million author indexes. Back then twenty or thirty people sat at very long tables— A, B, C—working in alphabetical order like that.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: On cards?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Even on stamps. We had a piece of paper to do the abstracts. On the top were the authors on small stamps ; on the side, the subjects; and on the middle, the abstracts. Then people cut all these small pieces and classified them—first, by the authors, and then by the indexes. Then they put all the indexes on tables. On other tables, they put the authors. Clerical people classified the authors, and scientists classified the subject indexes. They tried to organize it. You know, it was not a machine. The computer would reject the work if one thing were wrong. The idea was to try to automate these operations. Dr. Brygoo only knew a little about automation. This was during 1962 and 1963. At that time, Compagnie de Saint-Gobain, a very large chemical company, had started the automation of their documentation. That was the first time that had ever happened in France. One of the people in charge of that was Monsieur Pigagniol, a friend of Brygoo. Brygoo, after a few months, decided that I was going to help him with the automation operation. So I was put in charge of one department of Bulletin Signalétique. As we didn’t have a lot of space, I sat with Brygoo in a very large office. In France, that arrangement was unusual because people liked their privacy; they liked to have their own offices. However, Brygoo wanted to work in the same space so that we would able to exchange information. That was how we started talking about automation. Then, Dr. Brygoo was offered a job in [the United States of] America by a large American laboratory—Eli Lilly [and Company]—so he decided to go to America. [laughter] He left us with all of our problems and without a chief of biomedical sciences. There were three departments at that time; one dealt with everything associated with biology: agriculture, medicine, biology, pharmacology, and biophysics. Another dealt with mathematics, physics, chemistry, et cetera. The chief was a lady named Madame Duval. The other department dealt with les sciences humaines (social sciences). There were three separate Bulletins Signalétiques. Brygoo was in charge of the biology department. After he decided to leave, the biology department stayed without a chief for maybe three or four months.
{{Article body/End}}

===Jean Wyart===
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|04}}
:During that period, we were under the direction of Jean Wyart.

:At the end of that year, Jean Wyart called me in to his office and said, “I hope you are not planning to go on holiday for Christmas.” And I told him that I was, but he insisted, “No, you have to stay—you are going to take over biology.” To which I responded, “That’s impossible. I was the last to arrive here.” There were two ladies—one in charge of medicine and the other in charge of agriculture—who had been there much longer than I was. I told Wyart, “I’m going to have a lot of problems with them.” But he declared, “No, you take over biology and announce it to them yourself.” [laughter] That was very convenient for him. I agreed to take over biology and I told the ladies, “Look, I didn’t ask for anything because I’m not planning on staying anyway. But this is life.” They were all right with it and said, “Look, we know you. We don’t know who else could have been named for the position.” And so we began working and did quite a good job of starting the automation of authors and indexes.

:A year later, Madame Duval retired. The director of human sciences was a geography researcher. He didn’t retire, but he didn’t want to do his job anymore and decided to leave. One day, Jean Wyart called me, and said, “I would like to tell you that you are also going to take over mathematical, physical, and the human sciences departments.” I replied, “Look, I don’t know anything about mathematics; I’m not very good at that.” He insisted, “Oh, no, you can do it. You have very good people from the field with you. Your two deputies are very good at physics as well as chemistry. You take the human sciences.” And I told him, “Human sciences? I cannot; we look at things completely different. I am very precise; I like my work to be very precise.” The researchers in human sciences did not come to work. Their work for ''Bulletin Signalétique'' was two years’ late. The researchers thought it didn’t matter because “it’s human sciences, we have the life.”

:I came home and told my husband, “You know, some of these people are very poor professionals, but some need the job because they have families, et cetera. What am I going to do?” Finally, I decided, “All right, I will do it ''ad interim'' until you find someone who can really take over completely.” Wyart agreed.

:I was lucky, half of the people working during my interim decided to leave because I forced them to come to work. Some had several jobs. Back then, having several jobs was not permitted. So they hired Madame Louise Cadoux, a maître de requêtes de Conseil d’État (master of requests of Council of State). She was excellent. She is now working in Conseil d’État. She said to me, “I am sorry that you didn’t do the interim longer because maybe some more of the bad people would have left.” [laughter] Madame Cadoux recruited new people who worked well with her.
{{Article body/End}}
===The beginning of automation and computing===
{{Article body/Begin}}
:We began to study the automation of the Bulletin Signalétique. Then Jean Wyart retired and was replaced by Jacques D’Olier. Of course, work became very difficult because Jacques D’Olier came from the Délégation Générale de l’Information Scientifique et Technique (DGRST)<ref group="EN">DGRST deals with «Délégation Générale de la Recherche Scientifique et Technique»</ref>, part of the prime minister’s cabinet.

:Wyart had never informed the chiefs of the different departments of D’Olier’s nomination. The chiefs wanted Jacques Cordonnier, who was doing all kinds of research on cards. But, one day Jean Wyart called a meeting and said, “I’d like you to meet your new boss.”
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|05}}
:People drew their breath.

:There was a terrible silence. Jacques D’Olier was very shy. The silence stretched on for ten minutes. Nobody knew what to say. Jean Wyart broke the silence with, “I hope you will help D’Olier.” I thought, “Well, I am the newest employee, but I have to say something.” So I said, “All right, we will help you as much as we can” followed by some of the stupid things that people always say in that type of situation. He was always very grateful to me for having broken that silence. [laughter] D’Olier recruited a young guy named Pierre Buffet, whom you may have heard of. He is the international relations director of Questel [Company], a large host computer company distributing Chemical Abstracts and databases in France. Pierre Buffet had just come from the army and had studied in the north of France. He was supposed to help us with the computing. At that time, we said, “This is what we would like the computer to do.” The computer people told us, “Oh, that’s impossible. That’s impossible.” But we finally got what we requested.

:We had the possibility to take computing courses at INRIA—Institut National de Recherché en Informatique et en Automatique, in Versailles. Andre Berthelot, who was the chief of physics, and I decided to go and follow the courses to try to understand why everything was so difficult.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were talking before about those little author indexes on pieces of paper the sizes of stamps, and so on. You were beginning to look at automation at that point. Were they actually experimenting with punch cards?

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I never worked with punch cards. But there was a department in CDST under the responsibility of Cordonnier, whom I never worked with, who was experimenting with punch cards. He was using them in the translation department to try and index the translations that were already done. It’s very expensive to do translations. When a researcher asked for a translation, it was good to know if one already existed.

:We started working with a computer. I think it was an IBM 360. It was a very modest attempt, and in the beginning, it was more difficult to do it that way than to do it by hand. In America, they had experience with them, but we didn’t in France.

:This is how we started the automation and why I studied the computing. I didn’t study a very high level of mathematics; my training was practical, on software and hardware. I was doing more of the systems analysis than programming, myself. At that time, it was very difficult to do programming. It was much more difficult than now. [laughter]

:Then we continued the automation. We produced the Bulletin Signalétique with the computer. Then we decided that it was not enough and started thinking about the PASCAL database. Pierre Buffet and I are the parents of the PASCAL database. But at that time, the database was just a by-product of the Bulletin Signalétique. We had it all on tapes. We tried to do a database like that, which is the actually the opposite of how it should be done. We understand that now.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|06}}
:We had to make so many corrections to the database.

:First, we had to take all the marks and codes out of the database. It took a lot of time, because we needed a lot of codes. Nobody wanted to abandon the Bulletin Signalétique style with italics, bold, different type of characters, and all the mathematical signs, et cetera. Then, we couldn’t print anything on paper because the tape was so dirty with all these codes and marks. It was, in fact, a printed Bulletin Signalétique on tape. When we saw how difficult it was to use these tapes, we started thinking of reversing this operation. But it was very difficult to tell that to the editing staff, because they didn’t want to abandon anything. They all thought that different subjects could not be treated with the same system. They thought physics and medicine needed a different system and mathematics and human sciences needed a special computing system. We had heard that for years. Even so, we decided we were going to use only one system. If there were a need of some adaptation for mathematics, for example, we’d see to that later. That was how we started the automation.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What did you do by way of discovering applications of different standards—bibliographical standards, the MARC [machine readable cataloging] formats, and things of that kind?

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I was involved in ISO TC 46 [International Standards Organization’s Technical Committee], for many, many years. I even chaired one of the annual meetings, et cetera.
{{Article body/End}}

[END OF TAPE, SIDE 1]

{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We were not using the MARC format because it was considered to be too complicated for scientific information systems. In fact, our colleagues, friends from the information side of things, with whom we were already working—''Chemical Abstracts'', ''Physikalische Berichte'', INSPEC [Information Service in Physics, Electrotechnology and Control], and all the organizations, the Russians, et cetera — were all using our own formats.
{{Article body/End}}

===ICSU AB, International Council of Scientific Unions Abstracting Board===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What form did your collaborations with those organizations take?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: In the form of the ICSU AB [International Council of Scientific Unions Abstracting Board]. We had been doing a common list of periodicals, processed, in a sense, by technical information systems. We had a meeting of ICSU AB every year, and we discussed our problems about the journal exchange of publications, et cetera. It was decided to start working for a kind of communication format that could be used by all the systems. It was not very successful because it was difficult. But it helped us to understand where the problems were. Still the decision was not to use MARC.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|07}}
:The world was really divided in two parts: librarians that were using MARC, including our own librarians; and the scientific information centers that were using, more or less, their own much simpler formats.

:It was only later—many years after that—that it was decided to work on the reconciliation of MARC and the systems we used. We used the UNISIST [United Nations International Scientific Information System] format when it started. It seems a little bit strange now, but at that time so many things were going on that we were running in all directions.

:All these information centers were trying to find a better and cheaper way to produce their publications. In fact, that was the goal of all of us. We were visiting each other to see how we were working. There were no secrets. All the people were showing what they were doing. I remember being in Columbus, where they were doing their coding, and having them try to show it to us. But it was just the beginning.
{{Article body/End}}

===Use of PASCAL===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, when you began the PASCAL database, you also included the ''sciences humaines''?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, later. We started with the biology, and then we did the sciences humaines. ''Bulletin Signalétique'' was only published every three months. It took more time to automate the ''sciences humaines'', but Louise Cadoux has done it. This is how the PASCAL database was developed.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Could you speak about some of the related organizations? You mentioned one, the Délégation Générale de l’Information Scientifique et Technique. Apparently, that was set up in 1959.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Maybe. I don’t know.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Then there was a Comité d’Étude de la Documentation and an Association Nationale pour l’Étude de la Documentation Automatisée [L’ANEDA]. Their names came out of this article (1). I wondered what these were, how important they were, and what bearing they had on CNRS and CDST. Well, apparently, in 1963, there was a plan of some sort—the “VIe Plan.” They keep referring to that in this article.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Association Nationale pour l’Étude de la Documentation Automatisée. Le sixième plan (the sixth plan) is a governmental plan. This was not especially for documentation or for information. It was the plan for our government. It had no impact.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|08}}
:The only result of that was the nomination of Jacques Brygoo. And to try to apply this to L’ANEDA. But, in fact, he put his own ideas in very fast.
[BREAK IN RECORDING]
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then they decided to set up the Centre de Documentation des Sciences Humaines. It was a separate center from CDST. First, the Bulletin Signalétique was divided into three parts. Then everything was reunited.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: That was starting to happen when you were interim director?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, let’s say that. Then they created two centers. This was when the Centre de Documentation Scientifique et Technique moved to a new place. The Centre de Documentation des Sciences Humaines was moved to the new Maison des Sciences de l’Homme when it was built. Then there were two centers.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Each center was still producing the Bulletin Signalétique related to its area?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, each center was doing exactly the same.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was there a common processing center for the two?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, at one time. Then, they both started using the computer of Maison des Sciences de l’Homme. The same computer people were doing both. There were a lot of different periods, with a lot of changes.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yes, during one period—I think it was 1964—the Bulletin Signalétique seemed to be split into different sections.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. This was at the request of researchers. They didn’t want to have a big Bulletin Signalétique to read. With automation, it was easier to do that. But, in fact, it has created a lot of problems with those automations because of duplication. Physics cannot take over biophysics. But in biology, you need biophysics. So a number of abstracts were put in several places. There was another index added in where Bulletin Signalétique was going to go.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|09}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was there an attempt to counter the influence of the English and American systems?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: No. I remember this, but it was one of the studies that didn’t lead anywhere. [laughter] I’m negative, but, you know, all these things were created—BNIST [Bureau National de l’Information Scientifique at Technique]. Because when you read that, you don’t see that. ''“À contrer la prolifération envahissante des publications scientifiques d’origine étrangère — c’est-à-dire qu’il dénonce la concurrence les Etats-Unis.”'' <ref>Dusoulier is referring to written document, which the Chemical Heritage Foundation was unable to locate forproper translation.</ref> It’s stupid. You don’t want them; you don’t buy them. You cannot stop publishing. It’s so stupid even to say that.

:This is one of the reasons why PASCAL database was built and didn’t stop doing chemistry. Because most of the publications were coming from the States. We could have said, “All right, we’ll take ''Chemical Abstracts.''” We didn’t do it because we were afraid. Chemical Abstracts was warning that one day it would stop giving the information in chemistry to Europe and Japan. We said, “We have to continue. Imagine, that might or will happen.” This is how the Centre de la Bulletin Signalétique was created in 1939. Because we had no more information coming from abroad because of the War. My own opinion.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Why would ''Chem. Abstracts'' stop? They were actually selling the information, so why would they stop?

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I don’t know. At one time, you know, there were strange ideas in America, and sometimes they continued. I can tell you, once, I had a conversation with Al [Albert] Gore [Jr.] on that. But that was much later. There was competition over research in chemistry. They were afraid that the Europeans and the Japanese would use the American databases to compete with the research done on chemistry. If you give all the information to the French researchers, they can do as well as you can do. The American Chemical Society said, “No, no, we don’t want any more of our information to be distributed.” There were rumors like that, particularly when ''Chemical Abstracts'' started distributing the tapes. Of course, they were always selling; the problem was not to buy because it’s much more expensive to do it yourself than to buy.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, in developing the PASCAL database in the area of chemistry, did you do all the indexing again, yourselves?
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|10}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We did everything ourselves. This is why I started negotiating with, for example, the American Physical Society, the Engineering Index, et cetera, so that they could provide us the information already indexed. We were prepared to buy.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Did that work out?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: That worked with physics. You know, it’s only a problem of people. In Engineering Index, they were working too slowly. That was in the time of John Regazzi. Now, everything has changed. It was really difficult because we had to translate. The French researchers, at that time, wanted to have information in French.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Has the audience of the ''Bulletin Signalétique'' changed over time?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: No. Our goal was always the same. The researchers from CNRS and the university were our target—about a hundred thousand people, in fact. And we had no problem of money. They asked us to recover some of the money, at least enough to cover the printing of ''Bulletin Signalétique''. We recovered enough by selling it—only to pay for the printing, not for the entire operation. Nobody asked us to do better. Bulletin Signalétique was bought by libraries all over the world. When I traveled, I found Bulletin Signalétique in the most remote libraries, including Taiwan. I suppose that there are not too many people who can read French there. [laughter] But, still, they had Bulletin Signalétique.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Most of the American research libraries take it either as a whole or have the selected parts for the different sciences.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes! We had a lot of subscribers at one time—thirty-two thousand subscribers. There were a lot of subscribers to Bulletin Signalétique. But that was not the goal. The goal was really to serve French readers.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So this was just an incidental financial benefit.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. But, of course, our administrators were very happy to find this money because they were able to spend less. The purpose was never to be a commercial organization. Never. This is why there was no competition, really, with other centers. We wanted to have cooperation to do our work better. That’s all. Not to compete.
{{Article body/End}}

==See also==
;Editor's Notes:
<references group="EN"/>
[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/CNRS]]

Astron. Astrophys. Suppl. Ser. (2000) Wenger

2021-05-06T09:20:44Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* Abstract */

{{Page title for an article
|title=[[Has title::The SIMBAD astronomical database]]
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[[fr:Astron. Astrophys. Suppl. Ser. (2000) Wenger]]
{{Clr}}
==Abstract==
{{Begin article body}}
Simbad is the reference database for identification and bibliography of astronomical objects. It contains identifications, "basic data", bibliography, and selected observational measurements for several million astronomical objects. Simbad is developed and maintained by CDS, Strasbourg. Building the database contents is achieved with the help of several contributing institutes. Scanning the bibliography is the result of the collaboration of CDS with bibliographers in Observatoire de Paris (DASGAL), Institut d'Astrophysique de Paris, and Observatoire de Bordeaux. When selecting catalogues and tables for inclusion, priority is given to optimal multi-wavelength coverage of the database, and to support of research developments linked to large projects. In parallel, the systematic scanning of the bibliography reflects the diversity and general trends of astronomical research. A WWW interface to Simbad is available at: {http://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/Simbad}.
{{End article body}}

Astron. Astrophys. Suppl. Ser. (2000) Wenger

2021-05-06T09:19:34Z

Jacques Ducloy:

{{Page title for an article
|title=[[Has title::The SIMBAD astronomical database]]
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[[fr:Astron. Astrophys. Suppl. Ser. (2000) Wenger]]
{{Clr}}
==Abstract==
{{Begin article body}}
Simbad is the reference database for identification and bibliography of astronomical objects. It contains identifications, ``basic data'', bibliography, and selected observational measurements for several million astronomical objects. Simbad is developed and maintained by CDS, Strasbourg. Building the database contents is achieved with the help of several contributing institutes. Scanning the bibliography is the result of the collaboration of CDS with bibliographers in Observatoire de Paris (DASGAL), Institut d'Astrophysique de Paris, and Observatoire de Bordeaux. When selecting catalogues and tables for inclusion, priority is given to optimal multi-wavelength coverage of the database, and to support of research developments linked to large projects. In parallel, the systematic scanning of the bibliography reflects the diversity and general trends of astronomical research. A WWW interface to Simbad is available at: {http://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/Simbad}.
{{End article body}}

Astron. Astrophys. Suppl. Ser. (2000) Wenger

2021-05-06T09:19:20Z

Jacques Ducloy:

{{Page title for an article
|title=[[Has title::The SIMBAD astronomical database]]
}}
[[fr:Astron. Astrophys. Suppl. Ser. (2000) Wenger]]
{{Clr}}
==Abstract==
{{Begin article body}}
Simbad is the reference database for identification and bibliography of astronomical objects. It contains identifications, ``basic data'', bibliography, and selected observational measurements for several million astronomical objects. Simbad is developed and maintained by CDS, Strasbourg. Building the database contents is achieved with the help of several contributing institutes. Scanning the bibliography is the result of the collaboration of CDS with bibliographers in Observatoire de Paris (DASGAL), Institut d'Astrophysique de Paris, and Observatoire de Bordeaux. When selecting catalogues and tables for inclusion, priority is given to optimal multi-wavelength coverage of the database, and to support of research developments linked to large projects. In parallel, the systematic scanning of the bibliography reflects the diversity and general trends of astronomical research. A WWW interface to Simbad is available at: {http://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/Simbad}.
{{End article body}}

Astron. Astrophys. Suppl. Ser. (2000) Wenger

2021-05-06T09:17:42Z

Jacques Ducloy:

{{Page title for an article
|title=[[Has title::The SIMBAD astronomical database]]
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[[fr:Astron. Astrophys. Suppl. Ser. (2000) Wenger]]

Astron. Astrophys. Suppl. Ser. (2000) Wenger

2021-05-06T09:14:27Z

Jacques Ducloy: Created page with " fr:Astron. Astrophys. Suppl. Ser. (2000) Wenger"

[[fr:Astron. Astrophys. Suppl. Ser. (2000) Wenger]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Index

2021-04-28T07:51:19Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* C */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
__NOTOC__
{|class="wikitable"
|-
|[[#A|A]]
|[[#B|B]]
|[[#C|C]]
|[[#D|D]]
|[[#E|E]]
|[[#F|F]]
|[[#G|G]]
|[[#H|H]]
|[[#I|I]]
|[[#J|J]]
|[[#K|K]]
|[[#L|L]]
|[[#M|J]]
|[[#N|N]]
|[[#O|O]]
|[[#P|P]]
|[[#Q|Q]]
|[[#R|R]]
|[[#S|S]]
|[[#U|U]]
|[[#V|V]]
|[[#W|W]]
|-
|}
==A==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{|
|-
|All-Russian Institute for Scientific and Technical Information [VINITI]
|{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|12}}
|-
|American Chemical Society
|{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|09}}
|-
|American Physical Society
| {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|10}}
|-
|Anderla, Georges
|{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|15}}
|-
|Association Nationale pour l’Etude de la Documentation Automatisée [L'ANEDA]
|{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|08}}
|-
|Automatic indexing
|{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|16}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|26}}
|-
|Automation
|{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|03}} - {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|06}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|08}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|20}}
|-
|}
{{Article body/End}}

==B==
{{Article body/Begin}}
Baker, Dale B., 15, 18
Berthelot, Andre, 5
Bibliometry, 11, 26
Bibliothèque de France, 11
BNIST. See Bureau National de l’Information Scientifique at Technique
Bonn, Germany, 12
British Library, 27-28
Brygoo, Pierre, 3, 8
Buffet, Pierre, 5
Bulletin Signalétique, 2-10, 13-14, 27
Bureau National de l’Information Scientifique at Technique [BNIST], 9, 12
{{Article body/End}}
==C==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{|
|-
|Cadoux, Louise
| {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|4}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|7}}
|-
|CDSH
| {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|22}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|29}}
|-
|CDST. See Centre de Documentation Scientifique et Technique
|-
|Centre de Documentation Scientifique et Technique [CDST]
| {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|2}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|5}}-{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|8}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|12}}-{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|14}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|21}}-{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|24}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|27}}
|-
|Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique [CNRS]
| {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|2}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|7}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|10}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|12}}-{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|13}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|20}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|22}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|25}}-{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|27}}
|-
|Château du Montet
| {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|22}}
|-
|Chemical Abstracts
| {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|5}}-{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|6}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|9}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|27}}
|-
|CIDST. See Comité Internationale pour la Documentation Scientifique et Technique
|-
|CNRS. See Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique
|-
|Comité Diplomatique
| {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|20}}
|-
|Comité Internationale pour la Documentation Scientifique et Technique [CIDST]
| {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|15}}
|-
|Commercialization
| {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|11}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|24}}, {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|26}}-{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|27}}
|-
|Compagnie de Saint-Gobain
| {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|3}}
|-
|Computing
| {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|5}}-{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|6}}
|-
|Consiplio Nazionale delle Ricerche
| {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|12}}
|-
|Cordonnier, Jacques
| {{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page|5}}

|-
|}

{{Article body/End}}

==D==
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{|
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|D’Olier, Jacques, 4-5
Delacôte, Goéry, 20, 25
Délégation Générale de l’Information Scientifique et Technique [DGRST], 4, 12
Delors, Jacques, 15
DGRST. See Délégation Générale de l’Information Scientifique et Technique
Diane. See Direct Information Access Network for Europe
DIMDI, 19
Direct Information Access Network for Europe [Diane], 14
Duval, --, 3-4
|–
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[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Index]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Employment at INIST

2021-04-26T18:47:32Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* Changes in technology */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Employment at INIST==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|20}}
[BREAK IN RECORDING]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I said, “All right, after the weekend, I will write you.” Then he said, “Oh, you know, you have to do it.” I said, “Yes, sure. I’m interested.” He said, “Because, you know, don’t forget, you are in secondment—” I said, “Is that a way of threatening me? If I won’t be good, they won’t continue my secondment?” And I told him, “Oh, please, don’t chantage (blackmail) me because I can stay with the UN as long as I want.” And, of course, in CNRS, you have to stay until sixty-five. “I can stay until sixty-two, anyway, and you can stay two years more. You know, considering the money I’m getting here, I will have more money staying three years less in CNRS than two years more.” [laughter]
{{Article body/End}}
===Transition from the United Nations===
{{Article body/Begin}}

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: He said, “No, that was not what I was trying to do.” I said, “All right.” Then he left. I showed him a little bit of what we were doing. After the weekend, I wrote thirty-two pages of comments on this thing. There were a lot of crazy things I could not understand. And I said that. Then I never heard about anything. Because there were problems in Geneva, the Comité Diplomatique said they didn’t want to pay any more money for the library because there were big problems there. The librarian said, “Over my dead body. There will be no computers in the library.” Finally, they negotiated that I could go to Geneva. I had almost finished my automation in New York, and I moved to Geneva. I was happy to move back to Geneva because my kids were in France. I was a little bit lonely. I went back to Geneva and began working. You cannot believe what Geneva was like. There were rooms full of books. If you opened the door, you just had to run very fast because, otherwise, everything was going to fall on you. [laughter] It was terrible. I started buying computers, doing automation, putting things in order in Geneva.

:One day, two years later, I had a call. “I’m the secretary of the director of CRNS. He wants you to come tomorrow to see him.” I said, “Look, lady, [laughter] I am not working for you. The UN is paying me, and I just cannot. Again, it is during the General Assembly.” [laughter] She said, “Yes. So, when can you come?” I said, “I can come on Saturday.” Then I went on Saturday. It was a big room with the director of CNRS, Goéry Delacôte, the director of information, and the chief of personnel of CNRS. They said, “We were very happy about the comments you did,” et cetera. It happened in forty-five minutes. I was thinking, “They didn’t ask me to come from Geneva to listen to how they were happy about the report that I did.”
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|21}}
 
:They said, “Do you know why we have called you?” I said, “No, I have no idea.” “Well, because we want you to take over the INIST.”

:Then, because I was so shocked, I asked a stupid question. I said, “But, I work for the UN and I have no intention of leaving. I have just renewed my contract for the next two years. What happened to Mr. Jakobiac?” He was supposed to take over INIST. I heard, during the two years, that this guy was in charge of INIST.

:As soon as I asked the question, I knew that it was stupid because then they said, “Non, cela n’a pas marché''; it didn’t work,” et cetera. I was a little bit surprised. They said, “We want you to start immediately.” I said, “Are you joking? I just, six months ago, came from New York. I cannot just leave the UN.” They said, “We are going to get someone to replace you.”

:I said, “Look, there was a story in New York. The director of personnel didn’t want me to go to Geneva. Then Geneva said, ‘We cannot do without you. It’s very important,’ et cetera. There was a battle for me to go to Geneva. The director of the Geneva office is not going to accept that I’m being replaced just like that.” They said, “Then, we will find two people.” [laughter] “All right.”
{{Article body/End}}

===Kofi Annan===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then I went to Geneva and talked to the director of the Geneva office—he was a Belgian man at the time. He said, “They are crazy. There is no way. Look, if you want to go back—” I said, “Look, this is my organization. They can force me to go back.” “They wouldn’t force you.” At the same time, the French said, “All right, we can force you.” But it would take two years—going to tribunal.

:Finally, I negotiated that I could do some work with the ''conseil de projet'' (project council) on Saturdays and my vacation days. Which meant, in 1987, I didn’t have any vacation days. I used all my vacation days so that I could find someone to replace me in Geneva and that to give them time for the hiring process. In fact, it was Mr. Kofi Annan, the chief of personnel, who is now the director general. I met him in the French embassy and we negotiated my replacement.
{{Article body/End}}

===Founding of INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then the INIST story started. I discovered that it was going to be very difficult because all the people said, “It’s impossible. It cannot be done.” I talked to some of the people. “You’re crazy to try to do it,” they said. I said, “It could be interesting to start something.” But,all the people said, “No, it’s not feasible. It’s impossible.” INIST started with a lot of difficulties. I moved to Nancy. I was one person with only a secretary and her husband to help me.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:What were all the difficulties that people were referring to?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The difficulties were that the CDST was not prepared to move. We had a library of twenty-seven thousand titles of periodicals on ten floors.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|22}}
 
:We had to move all that, but we could not stop working. We had four thousand requests for photocopies a day at that time. A day! How do you continue to do that? We had to build a building and figure out where to put the staff. Then the staff didn’t want to go. Altogether, thirty people from the whole CNRS went. We had to recruit about three or four hundred people—newcomers—train them, and put them somewhere. When we recruited them, there was nowhere to sit; we had to rent space. We were even in a small castle from the eighteenth century. In this castle alone with a secretary. [laughter] I had to rent in a building the rooms to put the people I was recruiting in. All these people had to be recruited through a National Caucus. It was competitions, because it’s administration. It was a post of a fonctionnaire (civil servant).

:Recruitment was not so easy. I needed ten people as a jury. We had a written exam and then an oral one. We were recruiting twenty-five people at one time. I worked in five places: CDST, rue Boyer, where the remaining staff was; Boulevard Raspail, where CDSH was, the human sciences; and Château du Montet, where I was officially located. But, for political reasons, they wanted me to go there. I was an important person there. I had taken some other things, but we have not time to go through—from the press.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 3]
{{Article body/End}}

===Moving to Nancy, France. ===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Phillips Company moved to the suburbs of Nancy, and they left a big place that we started to use for newcomers. Then, I was at Château du Montet; some people were in Vendoeuvre, in a building where we just rented some rooms; and others were in two places in Paris. In those days, my train left at 6:15 in the morning. Fortunately, they gave me a driver. The driver brought me to the station at six o’clock; at 6:15, I got the train. I arrived in Paris at 9:00 am. I had a driver taking me, and the driver was carrying me to the two centers, from center to center, mostly to CDST because of where we had the library. And at 6:15 pm, I was taking the train back. I arrived at about 10:30 pm to eleven o’clock three times a week.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Sounds appalling.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The rest of the time, I was in Nancy. I did that for three years. [laughter] I wasfortunate to have good health at that time. We started building the new building. I had tofollow the building project and, at the same time, continue to recruit, train, and movepeople.We moved the collections in six weeks, and we neverstopped serving the users. We managedthis because we had prepared the places of the collections by computer. During the day, we puteverythingin a truck andduring the nightwe moved.Then thenext day, the collections wereput in placeand we’d start all over again. We used two trucks a day.

:There were machines left in CDST, and we bought new machines for INIST. As soon as the orders came, we filled them from INIST or CDST. They said it would be impossible. When I told Caroline Wiegandt-Sakoun, a librarian, she thought I was crazy.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|23}}
 
:Not on a big collection; we have changed the places of collection in a library from Vienna. All the collection on drugs came to us, and we moved that from Vienna to Geneva.
{{Article body/End}}
===Recruitment of staff===
{{Article body/Begin}}
:The people worked very hard. Even the people in CDST who were not going to stay did a marvelous job. We hired new people.
:The first people we hired were the ''magasiniers'' (shopkeepers) to put things in place. Every night, there was a librarian staying with them to see that there were no particular questions about where to put things.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Were you still doing the work on developing the database at this time?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:: Yes. The new periodicals were arriving at Nancy, which meant the new people were working on them. The CDST was doing the backlog because some of the people were leaving, and some others didn’t want to work anymore because they were leaving—[gunshot]—midi (noon).
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There’s a gunshot at noon?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, every day at 12:00 pm. So that you can check your watch.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The building site started when?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It started in November, 1987.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: When you were recruiting the staff to set the service up—you had over three hundred people.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. More. We had three hundred fifty, plus the staff to do abstracts from home. Yes, some of the people were doing abstracts at home. Then we started doing them online from home also.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What proportion of the abstracts was done outside by this piecework process? It was a piecework process, really, wasn’t it?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Maybe half of the abstracts. But much less of the indexing was done that way.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|24}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The indexing was done in-house, essentially.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes.
{{Article body/End}}

===Differences between Centre de Documentation Scientifique et Technique [CDST] and INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Let’s talk a little about the changing philosophy and the approach represented in the INIST as opposed to the earlier CDST. Because so few of the staff actually transferred, it was actually a new organization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. This was what we wanted. The most important change was that commercialization became an important part. We tried—and it is very difficult in an organization that is a public administration—to have a commercial department. We were not supposed to sell things. But we obtained permission from the Ministry of Finance to create a filiale (subsidiary company), the commercialization section.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: This is like a company that’s set up apart?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, a filiale is a part of the INIST group. In the INIST group we had INIST and INIST Diffusion. INIST Diffusion was in charge of commercialization. There were thirty or so employees. INIST had several directorates and one department of research. There was a directorate of production, development, external relations, administration and finance, and this filiale.
====INIST Diffusion====
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was commercialization held at arm’s length?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. It was a part of the company but was separate. INIST Diffusion was in charge of the commercialization and promotion of the product. It had the exclusivity of promotion and commercialization of all the INIST products. They say it’s an interface to adapt the offer to the demand. They were also able to collect the money that we were not able to.
:We were only able to spend money. It was a big budget, four hundred million francs a year. We had a big budget, but we had a controller. You can’t spend twenty cents without the controller’s approval about the way it was spent. The filiale was created in October, 1988.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: That was very close to the beginning.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|25}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: On 15 March 1987, the institute was officially created. But the conception of it started earlier. In September, with the director general of CNRS, we decided to start. We started recruiting the personnel of INIST in December. In November 1989, we started the construction of the buildings. It was very fast construction. In November and December, wetransferred the collections. In January 1990, INIST Diffusion started to function officially. In fact, in January, 1990, we had started to charge the users through INIST Diffusion. Before, it was charged by us but the money was collected by CNRS.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: But, of course, now, those services are entirely digital. They’re online, or on CD-ROMs. Are they no longer printed?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Printing was abandoned in 1992, I think it was.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, what were the reasons for deciding to no longer print? You mentioned escalating costs before.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Also we wanted to move from a publication center to a new center, and we couldn’t do everything. We were selling CD-ROMs, profiles, and bibliographic searches.
We sold other formats because not all our users were able to use CD-ROMs at that time. CD-
ROM use really started in the 1990s.
{{Article body/End}}
===Changes in technology===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were ahead of your time in providing this sort of digital service.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. We were the first in Europe. It was very difficult to choose the technology. In fact, we didn’t choose very good technology because we started with big digital discs. This has not proved to be the best choice.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I assume, though, that there’s a constant transfer of the technology.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We change the technology all the time. The goal of Delacôte was to have a new technology center.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What was the research department doing?

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|26}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They did a lot of bibliometry, automatic indexing, statistics, and infométrie (infometry). It was very important for CNRS to know who was doing what. Of course, this analysis was a preliminary study for the assisted indexing system that they were working on.
:We were working on a linguistic approach with a company called ALETH— segmentation techniques, optical character recognition—a preliminary study of an assisted indexing system evaluation and prospects. They were really a research department. Sometimes, we were a little bit unhappy that they were too research-oriented and not concentrating enough in applications. Then we remembered that we were CNRS, and we couldn’t kill research. [laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There was a development department.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were cognitive sciences. They were studying a lot of things that could help our staff to work better and do some research in cooperation with research institutes from Nancy that worked in linguistics and computers.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was some of what they were doing incorporated into the work of INIST?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Automatic indexing, for example. Pieces of it were incorporated into the computer system. The computer system was quite sophisticated. We had fifty people working on it.
:At one time, the department of development was one guy. [laughter] His goal was to steer the center to where the users wanted it. Honestly, he didn’t work very well. A few things came from it as far as knowing what the researchers wanted. But, you know, the researchers— they don’t even know what they want. You just ask them, “Do you want that?” They say, “Oh, yes, maybe.” Then you come and say, “This is what you asked for.” “Oh, no, that is not what I asked for.” “And what do you want?” Then, “I’m not sure.”
:But, still, the development guy was not completely responsible. In fact, now, these users follow up, et cetera, is done in the marketing department.
:Now, there is only one organization. INIST Diffusion is no longer a filiale . There is only one organization that has obtained, step by step, the right to commercialize. The problem was obtaining approval from the Ministry of Finance.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, just by way of general assessment as to where INIST has come from, where do you see it going? With this approach to commercialization, clearly there has to be, now, some notion of competitiveness with a whole range of other services.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|27}}
:Because you’re in effect competing for the money of clients who have other options being offered by a whole slew of database providers in Europe, in the States, elsewhere. I’m curious as to where INIST fits.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I have to say that, now, with the new director, who is a former administrator of one of the regions, they are coming back to CNRS users. For example, the international relations are much less international relations than they were when I was there. They are selling the services—but they are more centered to French researchers. We never had the idea of competing with other services.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The minute you speak of commercialization, it implies a marketplace in which there is competition.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, but the goal was to be able to collect the money we were gaining—to collect and to spend for ourselves. It was not so much to collect more and more money.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Not profit making.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: No. Our problem was that we were doing better services; we were selling more. All this money was going in a hole without end, which was called the Ministry of Finance. We never saw the results of our work. What we wanted—and what the CNRS has accepted—is, if we have more money, we can do better. We didn’t want to ask for more money, but we did want to do more services. That was the first goal. It was not so much to try to compete with ''Chemical Abstracts'' or whoever else. That was not the goal.
:Don’t forget, it’s a public administration. There were philosophical problems with the British Library at the time. We sometimes thought that they were doing things that were not very polite or not very good.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yes, they were very commercially-oriented.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But it was never at a personal level. We always had excellent relations with people like Brian Lang, David Russon, and Maurice Line. We tried even to have an agreement so that we abandoned the periodicals from which we sold very few articles. But, of course, competition was always in the air.
:Being a public administration, our goal was not to compete with other public administrations. We wanted to be recognized at the European level as a partner. We succeeded in doing that. CDST was never recognized apart from Bulletin Signalétique.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|28}}
:INIST was recognized, not only here, but we had visitors from China, Japan, and all over Europe. Big groups of people were coming to see what we were doing. But we never tried to say we were better than the English, Germans, or whoever.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The British Library thing interested me because there’s no question that when the National Lending Library for Science and Technology was set up, they developed a very commercial outlook. They were interested in making money.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, I have visited them.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: And they do make millions of pounds. I was interested that you were saying that during the move to Nancy, there were four thousand copies of articles being copied a day at that time. Which is, again, the sort of thing that the British Library was, you know, seeing as—
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were doing maybe ten thousand requests a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: —I wondered to what extent the development of their service actually impinged on yours.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It didn’t. They were too expensive.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yours was oriented mostly towards people in France?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: For people in France and all over the world. Because we had periodicals that some people didn’t have. I don’t know where the users were coming from. Also, the British Library, at that time, was always very complicated with their coupons, et cetera. But, in fact, we established the same thing. Now, it’s easier with credit cards but, at one time, we couldn’t accommodate credit cards.
:For two years almost, the center never stopped working. That was a burden. That was very difficult. I worked thirteen or fourteen hours a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I can believe it.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|29}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But we were lucky. We were like pioneers. I had a group of people that didn’t count their time. It was really a good group of people. My deputy, in fact, was the latest director of CDSH. She became the chief of INIST human sciences. It worked very well because we had been working together for twenty-five years. She was a good friend of mine, and she played the game.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The section concerned with the human sciences stayed in Paris?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It stayed a little bit longer, and then they moved. Yes.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So they’re all in Nancy now?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Recruiting staff, continuing to work, and installing ourselves in a building of a new conception from Jean Nouvel is not so easy. Jean Nouvel is an architect with ideas— you have seen his futuristic buildings. It is not so easy to work in a futurist building. Have you seen the corridors in the library?
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Oh, yes. It looks fascinating, in terms of design, but I wonder what it would be like to work in it. What was in this area below?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: That was a computer service.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 4]
[END OF INTERVIEW]
{{Article body/End}}

[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Carrière à l'INIST]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Employment at INIST

2021-04-26T18:39:19Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* Changes in technology */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Employment at INIST==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|20}}
[BREAK IN RECORDING]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I said, “All right, after the weekend, I will write you.” Then he said, “Oh, you know, you have to do it.” I said, “Yes, sure. I’m interested.” He said, “Because, you know, don’t forget, you are in secondment—” I said, “Is that a way of threatening me? If I won’t be good, they won’t continue my secondment?” And I told him, “Oh, please, don’t chantage (blackmail) me because I can stay with the UN as long as I want.” And, of course, in CNRS, you have to stay until sixty-five. “I can stay until sixty-two, anyway, and you can stay two years more. You know, considering the money I’m getting here, I will have more money staying three years less in CNRS than two years more.” [laughter]
{{Article body/End}}
===Transition from the United Nations===
{{Article body/Begin}}

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: He said, “No, that was not what I was trying to do.” I said, “All right.” Then he left. I showed him a little bit of what we were doing. After the weekend, I wrote thirty-two pages of comments on this thing. There were a lot of crazy things I could not understand. And I said that. Then I never heard about anything. Because there were problems in Geneva, the Comité Diplomatique said they didn’t want to pay any more money for the library because there were big problems there. The librarian said, “Over my dead body. There will be no computers in the library.” Finally, they negotiated that I could go to Geneva. I had almost finished my automation in New York, and I moved to Geneva. I was happy to move back to Geneva because my kids were in France. I was a little bit lonely. I went back to Geneva and began working. You cannot believe what Geneva was like. There were rooms full of books. If you opened the door, you just had to run very fast because, otherwise, everything was going to fall on you. [laughter] It was terrible. I started buying computers, doing automation, putting things in order in Geneva.

:One day, two years later, I had a call. “I’m the secretary of the director of CRNS. He wants you to come tomorrow to see him.” I said, “Look, lady, [laughter] I am not working for you. The UN is paying me, and I just cannot. Again, it is during the General Assembly.” [laughter] She said, “Yes. So, when can you come?” I said, “I can come on Saturday.” Then I went on Saturday. It was a big room with the director of CNRS, Goéry Delacôte, the director of information, and the chief of personnel of CNRS. They said, “We were very happy about the comments you did,” et cetera. It happened in forty-five minutes. I was thinking, “They didn’t ask me to come from Geneva to listen to how they were happy about the report that I did.”
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|21}}
 
:They said, “Do you know why we have called you?” I said, “No, I have no idea.” “Well, because we want you to take over the INIST.”

:Then, because I was so shocked, I asked a stupid question. I said, “But, I work for the UN and I have no intention of leaving. I have just renewed my contract for the next two years. What happened to Mr. Jakobiac?” He was supposed to take over INIST. I heard, during the two years, that this guy was in charge of INIST.

:As soon as I asked the question, I knew that it was stupid because then they said, “Non, cela n’a pas marché''; it didn’t work,” et cetera. I was a little bit surprised. They said, “We want you to start immediately.” I said, “Are you joking? I just, six months ago, came from New York. I cannot just leave the UN.” They said, “We are going to get someone to replace you.”

:I said, “Look, there was a story in New York. The director of personnel didn’t want me to go to Geneva. Then Geneva said, ‘We cannot do without you. It’s very important,’ et cetera. There was a battle for me to go to Geneva. The director of the Geneva office is not going to accept that I’m being replaced just like that.” They said, “Then, we will find two people.” [laughter] “All right.”
{{Article body/End}}

===Kofi Annan===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then I went to Geneva and talked to the director of the Geneva office—he was a Belgian man at the time. He said, “They are crazy. There is no way. Look, if you want to go back—” I said, “Look, this is my organization. They can force me to go back.” “They wouldn’t force you.” At the same time, the French said, “All right, we can force you.” But it would take two years—going to tribunal.

:Finally, I negotiated that I could do some work with the ''conseil de projet'' (project council) on Saturdays and my vacation days. Which meant, in 1987, I didn’t have any vacation days. I used all my vacation days so that I could find someone to replace me in Geneva and that to give them time for the hiring process. In fact, it was Mr. Kofi Annan, the chief of personnel, who is now the director general. I met him in the French embassy and we negotiated my replacement.
{{Article body/End}}

===Founding of INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then the INIST story started. I discovered that it was going to be very difficult because all the people said, “It’s impossible. It cannot be done.” I talked to some of the people. “You’re crazy to try to do it,” they said. I said, “It could be interesting to start something.” But,all the people said, “No, it’s not feasible. It’s impossible.” INIST started with a lot of difficulties. I moved to Nancy. I was one person with only a secretary and her husband to help me.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:What were all the difficulties that people were referring to?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The difficulties were that the CDST was not prepared to move. We had a library of twenty-seven thousand titles of periodicals on ten floors.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|22}}
 
:We had to move all that, but we could not stop working. We had four thousand requests for photocopies a day at that time. A day! How do you continue to do that? We had to build a building and figure out where to put the staff. Then the staff didn’t want to go. Altogether, thirty people from the whole CNRS went. We had to recruit about three or four hundred people—newcomers—train them, and put them somewhere. When we recruited them, there was nowhere to sit; we had to rent space. We were even in a small castle from the eighteenth century. In this castle alone with a secretary. [laughter] I had to rent in a building the rooms to put the people I was recruiting in. All these people had to be recruited through a National Caucus. It was competitions, because it’s administration. It was a post of a fonctionnaire (civil servant).

:Recruitment was not so easy. I needed ten people as a jury. We had a written exam and then an oral one. We were recruiting twenty-five people at one time. I worked in five places: CDST, rue Boyer, where the remaining staff was; Boulevard Raspail, where CDSH was, the human sciences; and Château du Montet, where I was officially located. But, for political reasons, they wanted me to go there. I was an important person there. I had taken some other things, but we have not time to go through—from the press.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 3]
{{Article body/End}}

===Moving to Nancy, France. ===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Phillips Company moved to the suburbs of Nancy, and they left a big place that we started to use for newcomers. Then, I was at Château du Montet; some people were in Vendoeuvre, in a building where we just rented some rooms; and others were in two places in Paris. In those days, my train left at 6:15 in the morning. Fortunately, they gave me a driver. The driver brought me to the station at six o’clock; at 6:15, I got the train. I arrived in Paris at 9:00 am. I had a driver taking me, and the driver was carrying me to the two centers, from center to center, mostly to CDST because of where we had the library. And at 6:15 pm, I was taking the train back. I arrived at about 10:30 pm to eleven o’clock three times a week.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Sounds appalling.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The rest of the time, I was in Nancy. I did that for three years. [laughter] I wasfortunate to have good health at that time. We started building the new building. I had tofollow the building project and, at the same time, continue to recruit, train, and movepeople.We moved the collections in six weeks, and we neverstopped serving the users. We managedthis because we had prepared the places of the collections by computer. During the day, we puteverythingin a truck andduring the nightwe moved.Then thenext day, the collections wereput in placeand we’d start all over again. We used two trucks a day.

:There were machines left in CDST, and we bought new machines for INIST. As soon as the orders came, we filled them from INIST or CDST. They said it would be impossible. When I told Caroline Wiegandt-Sakoun, a librarian, she thought I was crazy.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|23}}
 
:Not on a big collection; we have changed the places of collection in a library from Vienna. All the collection on drugs came to us, and we moved that from Vienna to Geneva.
{{Article body/End}}
===Recruitment of staff===
{{Article body/Begin}}
:The people worked very hard. Even the people in CDST who were not going to stay did a marvelous job. We hired new people.
:The first people we hired were the ''magasiniers'' (shopkeepers) to put things in place. Every night, there was a librarian staying with them to see that there were no particular questions about where to put things.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Were you still doing the work on developing the database at this time?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:: Yes. The new periodicals were arriving at Nancy, which meant the new people were working on them. The CDST was doing the backlog because some of the people were leaving, and some others didn’t want to work anymore because they were leaving—[gunshot]—midi (noon).
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There’s a gunshot at noon?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, every day at 12:00 pm. So that you can check your watch.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The building site started when?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It started in November, 1987.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: When you were recruiting the staff to set the service up—you had over three hundred people.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. More. We had three hundred fifty, plus the staff to do abstracts from home. Yes, some of the people were doing abstracts at home. Then we started doing them online from home also.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What proportion of the abstracts was done outside by this piecework process? It was a piecework process, really, wasn’t it?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Maybe half of the abstracts. But much less of the indexing was done that way.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|24}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The indexing was done in-house, essentially.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes.
{{Article body/End}}

===Differences between Centre de Documentation Scientifique et Technique [CDST] and INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Let’s talk a little about the changing philosophy and the approach represented in the INIST as opposed to the earlier CDST. Because so few of the staff actually transferred, it was actually a new organization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. This was what we wanted. The most important change was that commercialization became an important part. We tried—and it is very difficult in an organization that is a public administration—to have a commercial department. We were not supposed to sell things. But we obtained permission from the Ministry of Finance to create a filiale (subsidiary company), the commercialization section.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: This is like a company that’s set up apart?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, a filiale is a part of the INIST group. In the INIST group we had INIST and INIST Diffusion. INIST Diffusion was in charge of commercialization. There were thirty or so employees. INIST had several directorates and one department of research. There was a directorate of production, development, external relations, administration and finance, and this filiale.
====INIST Diffusion====
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was commercialization held at arm’s length?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. It was a part of the company but was separate. INIST Diffusion was in charge of the commercialization and promotion of the product. It had the exclusivity of promotion and commercialization of all the INIST products. They say it’s an interface to adapt the offer to the demand. They were also able to collect the money that we were not able to.
:We were only able to spend money. It was a big budget, four hundred million francs a year. We had a big budget, but we had a controller. You can’t spend twenty cents without the controller’s approval about the way it was spent. The filiale was created in October, 1988.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: That was very close to the beginning.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|25}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: On 15 March 1987, the institute was officially created. But the conception of it started earlier. In September, with the director general of CNRS, we decided to start. We started recruiting the personnel of INIST in December. In November 1989, we started the construction of the buildings. It was very fast construction. In November and December, wetransferred the collections. In January 1990, INIST Diffusion started to function officially. In fact, in January, 1990, we had started to charge the users through INIST Diffusion. Before, it was charged by us but the money was collected by CNRS.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: But, of course, now, those services are entirely digital. They’re online, or on CD-ROMs. Are they no longer printed?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Printing was abandoned in 1992, I think it was.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, what were the reasons for deciding to no longer print? You mentioned escalating costs before.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Also we wanted to move from a publication center to a new center, and we couldn’t do everything. We were selling CD-ROMs, profiles, and bibliographic searches.
We sold other formats because not all our users were able to use CD-ROMs at that time. CD-
ROM use really started in the 1990s.
{{Article body/End}}
===Changes in technology===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were ahead of your time in providing this sort of digital service.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. We were the first in Europe. It was very difficult to choose the technology. In fact, we didn’t choose very good technology because we started with big digital discs. This has not proved to be the best choice.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I assume, though, that there’s a constant transfer of the technology.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We change the technology all the time. The goal of Delacôte was to have a new technology center.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What was the research department doing?

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|26}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They did a lot of bibliometry, automatic indexing, statistics, and infométrie (infometry). It was very important for CNRS to know who was doing what. Of course, this analysis was a preliminary study for the assisted indexing system that they were working on.
:We were working on a linguistic approach with a company called ALETH— segmentation techniques, optical character recognition—a preliminary study of an assisted indexing system evaluation and prospects. They were really a research department. Sometimes, we were a little bit unhappy that they were too research-oriented and not concentrating enough in applications. Then we remembered that we were CNRS, and we couldn’t kill research. [laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There was a development department.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were cognitive sciences. They were studying a lot of things that could help our staff to work better and do some research in cooperation with research institutes from Nancy that worked in linguistics and computers.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was some of what they were doing incorporated into the work of INIST?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Automatic indexing, for example. Pieces of it were incorporated into the computer system. The computer system was quite sophisticated. We had fifty people working on it.
:At one time, the department of development was one guy. [laughter] His goal was to steer the center to where the users wanted it. Honestly, he didn’t work very well. A few things came from it as far as knowing what the researchers wanted. But, you know, the researchers— they don’t even know what they want. You just ask them, “Do you want that?” They say, “Oh, yes, maybe.” Then you come and say, “This is what you asked for.” “Oh, no, that is not what I asked for.” “And what do you want?” Then, “I’m not sure.”
:But, still, the development guy was not completely responsible. In fact, now, these users follow up, et cetera, is done in the marketing department.
:Now, there is only one organization. INIST Diffusion is no longer a filiale . There is only one organization that has obtained, step by step, the right to commercialize. The problem was obtaining approval from the Ministry of Finance.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, just by way of general assessment as to where INIST has come from, where do you see it going? With this approach to commercialization, clearly there has to be, now, some notion of competitiveness with a whole range of other services.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|27}}
:Because you’re in effect competing for the money of clients who have other options being offered by a whole slew of database providers in Europe, in the States, elsewhere. I’m curious as to where INIST fits.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I have to say that, now, with the new director, who is a former administrator of one of the regions, they are coming back to CNRS users. For example, the international relations are much less international relations than they were when I was there. They are selling the services—but they are more centered to French researchers. We never had the idea of competing with other services.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The minute you speak of commercialization, it implies a marketplace in which there is competition.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, but the goal was to be able to collect the money we were gaining—to collect and to spend for ourselves. It was not so much to collect more and more money.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Not profit making.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: No. Our problem was that we were doing better services; we were selling more. All this money was going in a hole without end, which was called the Ministry of Finance. We never saw the results of our work. What we wanted—and what the CNRS has accepted—is, if we have more money, we can do better. We didn’t want to ask for more money, but we did want to do more services. That was the first goal. It was not so much to try to compete with ''Chemical Abstracts'' or whoever else. That was not the goal.
:Don’t forget, it’s a public administration. There were philosophical problems with the British Library at the time. We sometimes thought that they were doing things that were not very polite or not very good.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yes, they were very commercially-oriented.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But it was never at a personal level. We always had excellent relations with people like Brian Lang, David Russon, and Maurice Line. We tried even to have an agreement so that we abandoned the periodicals from which we sold very few articles. But, of course, competition was always in the air.
:Being a public administration, our goal was not to compete with other public administrations. We wanted to be recognized at the European level as a partner. We succeeded in doing that. CDST was never recognized apart from Bulletin Signalétique.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|28}}
:INIST was recognized, not only here, but we had visitors from China, Japan, and all over Europe. Big groups of people were coming to see what we were doing. But we never tried to say we were better than the English, Germans, or whoever.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The British Library thing interested me because there’s no question that when the National Lending Library for Science and Technology was set up, they developed a very commercial outlook. They were interested in making money.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, I have visited them.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: And they do make millions of pounds. I was interested that you were saying that during the move to Nancy, there were four thousand copies of articles being copied a day at that time. Which is, again, the sort of thing that the British Library was, you know, seeing as—
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were doing maybe ten thousand requests a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: —I wondered to what extent the development of their service actually impinged on yours.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It didn’t. They were too expensive.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yours was oriented mostly towards people in France?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: For people in France and all over the world. Because we had periodicals that
some people didn’t have. I don’t know where the users were coming from. Also, the British
Library, at that time, was always very complicated with their coupons, et cetera. But, in fact, we
established the same thing. Now, it’s easier with credit cards but, at one time, we couldn’t
accommodate credit cards.
For two years almost, the center never stopped working. That was a burden. That was
very difficult. I worked thirteen or fourteen hours a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I can believe it.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|29}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But we were lucky. We were like pioneers. I had a group of people that didn’t
count their time. It was really a good group of people. My deputy, in fact, was the latest
director of CDSH. She became the chief of INIST human sciences. It worked very well
because we had been working together for twenty-five years. She was a good friend of mine,
and she played the game.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The section concerned with the human sciences stayed in Paris?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It stayed a little bit longer, and then they moved. Yes.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So they’re all in Nancy now?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Recruiting staff, continuing to work, and installing ourselves in a building
of a new conception from Jean Nouvel is not so easy. Jean Nouvel is an architect with ideas—
you have seen his futuristic buildings. It is not so easy to work in a futurist building. Have you
seen the corridors in the library?
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Oh, yes. It looks fascinating, in terms of design, but I wonder what it would be
like to work in it. What was in this area below?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: That was a computer service.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 4]
[END OF INTERVIEW]
{{Article body/End}}

[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Carrière à l'INIST]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Employment at INIST

2021-04-26T18:34:11Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* Changes in technology */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Employment at INIST==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|20}}
[BREAK IN RECORDING]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I said, “All right, after the weekend, I will write you.” Then he said, “Oh, you know, you have to do it.” I said, “Yes, sure. I’m interested.” He said, “Because, you know, don’t forget, you are in secondment—” I said, “Is that a way of threatening me? If I won’t be good, they won’t continue my secondment?” And I told him, “Oh, please, don’t chantage (blackmail) me because I can stay with the UN as long as I want.” And, of course, in CNRS, you have to stay until sixty-five. “I can stay until sixty-two, anyway, and you can stay two years more. You know, considering the money I’m getting here, I will have more money staying three years less in CNRS than two years more.” [laughter]
{{Article body/End}}
===Transition from the United Nations===
{{Article body/Begin}}

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: He said, “No, that was not what I was trying to do.” I said, “All right.” Then he left. I showed him a little bit of what we were doing. After the weekend, I wrote thirty-two pages of comments on this thing. There were a lot of crazy things I could not understand. And I said that. Then I never heard about anything. Because there were problems in Geneva, the Comité Diplomatique said they didn’t want to pay any more money for the library because there were big problems there. The librarian said, “Over my dead body. There will be no computers in the library.” Finally, they negotiated that I could go to Geneva. I had almost finished my automation in New York, and I moved to Geneva. I was happy to move back to Geneva because my kids were in France. I was a little bit lonely. I went back to Geneva and began working. You cannot believe what Geneva was like. There were rooms full of books. If you opened the door, you just had to run very fast because, otherwise, everything was going to fall on you. [laughter] It was terrible. I started buying computers, doing automation, putting things in order in Geneva.

:One day, two years later, I had a call. “I’m the secretary of the director of CRNS. He wants you to come tomorrow to see him.” I said, “Look, lady, [laughter] I am not working for you. The UN is paying me, and I just cannot. Again, it is during the General Assembly.” [laughter] She said, “Yes. So, when can you come?” I said, “I can come on Saturday.” Then I went on Saturday. It was a big room with the director of CNRS, Goéry Delacôte, the director of information, and the chief of personnel of CNRS. They said, “We were very happy about the comments you did,” et cetera. It happened in forty-five minutes. I was thinking, “They didn’t ask me to come from Geneva to listen to how they were happy about the report that I did.”
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|21}}
 
:They said, “Do you know why we have called you?” I said, “No, I have no idea.” “Well, because we want you to take over the INIST.”

:Then, because I was so shocked, I asked a stupid question. I said, “But, I work for the UN and I have no intention of leaving. I have just renewed my contract for the next two years. What happened to Mr. Jakobiac?” He was supposed to take over INIST. I heard, during the two years, that this guy was in charge of INIST.

:As soon as I asked the question, I knew that it was stupid because then they said, “Non, cela n’a pas marché''; it didn’t work,” et cetera. I was a little bit surprised. They said, “We want you to start immediately.” I said, “Are you joking? I just, six months ago, came from New York. I cannot just leave the UN.” They said, “We are going to get someone to replace you.”

:I said, “Look, there was a story in New York. The director of personnel didn’t want me to go to Geneva. Then Geneva said, ‘We cannot do without you. It’s very important,’ et cetera. There was a battle for me to go to Geneva. The director of the Geneva office is not going to accept that I’m being replaced just like that.” They said, “Then, we will find two people.” [laughter] “All right.”
{{Article body/End}}

===Kofi Annan===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then I went to Geneva and talked to the director of the Geneva office—he was a Belgian man at the time. He said, “They are crazy. There is no way. Look, if you want to go back—” I said, “Look, this is my organization. They can force me to go back.” “They wouldn’t force you.” At the same time, the French said, “All right, we can force you.” But it would take two years—going to tribunal.

:Finally, I negotiated that I could do some work with the ''conseil de projet'' (project council) on Saturdays and my vacation days. Which meant, in 1987, I didn’t have any vacation days. I used all my vacation days so that I could find someone to replace me in Geneva and that to give them time for the hiring process. In fact, it was Mr. Kofi Annan, the chief of personnel, who is now the director general. I met him in the French embassy and we negotiated my replacement.
{{Article body/End}}

===Founding of INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then the INIST story started. I discovered that it was going to be very difficult because all the people said, “It’s impossible. It cannot be done.” I talked to some of the people. “You’re crazy to try to do it,” they said. I said, “It could be interesting to start something.” But,all the people said, “No, it’s not feasible. It’s impossible.” INIST started with a lot of difficulties. I moved to Nancy. I was one person with only a secretary and her husband to help me.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:What were all the difficulties that people were referring to?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The difficulties were that the CDST was not prepared to move. We had a library of twenty-seven thousand titles of periodicals on ten floors.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|22}}
 
:We had to move all that, but we could not stop working. We had four thousand requests for photocopies a day at that time. A day! How do you continue to do that? We had to build a building and figure out where to put the staff. Then the staff didn’t want to go. Altogether, thirty people from the whole CNRS went. We had to recruit about three or four hundred people—newcomers—train them, and put them somewhere. When we recruited them, there was nowhere to sit; we had to rent space. We were even in a small castle from the eighteenth century. In this castle alone with a secretary. [laughter] I had to rent in a building the rooms to put the people I was recruiting in. All these people had to be recruited through a National Caucus. It was competitions, because it’s administration. It was a post of a fonctionnaire (civil servant).

:Recruitment was not so easy. I needed ten people as a jury. We had a written exam and then an oral one. We were recruiting twenty-five people at one time. I worked in five places: CDST, rue Boyer, where the remaining staff was; Boulevard Raspail, where CDSH was, the human sciences; and Château du Montet, where I was officially located. But, for political reasons, they wanted me to go there. I was an important person there. I had taken some other things, but we have not time to go through—from the press.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 3]
{{Article body/End}}

===Moving to Nancy, France. ===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Phillips Company moved to the suburbs of Nancy, and they left a big place that we started to use for newcomers. Then, I was at Château du Montet; some people were in Vendoeuvre, in a building where we just rented some rooms; and others were in two places in Paris. In those days, my train left at 6:15 in the morning. Fortunately, they gave me a driver. The driver brought me to the station at six o’clock; at 6:15, I got the train. I arrived in Paris at 9:00 am. I had a driver taking me, and the driver was carrying me to the two centers, from center to center, mostly to CDST because of where we had the library. And at 6:15 pm, I was taking the train back. I arrived at about 10:30 pm to eleven o’clock three times a week.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Sounds appalling.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The rest of the time, I was in Nancy. I did that for three years. [laughter] I wasfortunate to have good health at that time. We started building the new building. I had tofollow the building project and, at the same time, continue to recruit, train, and movepeople.We moved the collections in six weeks, and we neverstopped serving the users. We managedthis because we had prepared the places of the collections by computer. During the day, we puteverythingin a truck andduring the nightwe moved.Then thenext day, the collections wereput in placeand we’d start all over again. We used two trucks a day.

:There were machines left in CDST, and we bought new machines for INIST. As soon as the orders came, we filled them from INIST or CDST. They said it would be impossible. When I told Caroline Wiegandt-Sakoun, a librarian, she thought I was crazy.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|23}}
 
:Not on a big collection; we have changed the places of collection in a library from Vienna. All the collection on drugs came to us, and we moved that from Vienna to Geneva.
{{Article body/End}}
===Recruitment of staff===
{{Article body/Begin}}
:The people worked very hard. Even the people in CDST who were not going to stay did a marvelous job. We hired new people.
:The first people we hired were the ''magasiniers'' (shopkeepers) to put things in place. Every night, there was a librarian staying with them to see that there were no particular questions about where to put things.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Were you still doing the work on developing the database at this time?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:: Yes. The new periodicals were arriving at Nancy, which meant the new people were working on them. The CDST was doing the backlog because some of the people were leaving, and some others didn’t want to work anymore because they were leaving—[gunshot]—midi (noon).
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There’s a gunshot at noon?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, every day at 12:00 pm. So that you can check your watch.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The building site started when?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It started in November, 1987.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: When you were recruiting the staff to set the service up—you had over three hundred people.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. More. We had three hundred fifty, plus the staff to do abstracts from home. Yes, some of the people were doing abstracts at home. Then we started doing them online from home also.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What proportion of the abstracts was done outside by this piecework process? It was a piecework process, really, wasn’t it?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Maybe half of the abstracts. But much less of the indexing was done that way.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|24}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The indexing was done in-house, essentially.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes.
{{Article body/End}}

===Differences between Centre de Documentation Scientifique et Technique [CDST] and INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Let’s talk a little about the changing philosophy and the approach represented in the INIST as opposed to the earlier CDST. Because so few of the staff actually transferred, it was actually a new organization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. This was what we wanted. The most important change was that commercialization became an important part. We tried—and it is very difficult in an organization that is a public administration—to have a commercial department. We were not supposed to sell things. But we obtained permission from the Ministry of Finance to create a filiale (subsidiary company), the commercialization section.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: This is like a company that’s set up apart?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, a filiale is a part of the INIST group. In the INIST group we had INIST and INIST Diffusion. INIST Diffusion was in charge of commercialization. There were thirty or so employees. INIST had several directorates and one department of research. There was a directorate of production, development, external relations, administration and finance, and this filiale.
====INIST Diffusion====
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was commercialization held at arm’s length?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. It was a part of the company but was separate. INIST Diffusion was in charge of the commercialization and promotion of the product. It had the exclusivity of promotion and commercialization of all the INIST products. They say it’s an interface to adapt the offer to the demand. They were also able to collect the money that we were not able to.
:We were only able to spend money. It was a big budget, four hundred million francs a year. We had a big budget, but we had a controller. You can’t spend twenty cents without the controller’s approval about the way it was spent. The filiale was created in October, 1988.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: That was very close to the beginning.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|25}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: On 15 March 1987, the institute was officially created. But the conception of it started earlier. In September, with the director general of CNRS, we decided to start. We started recruiting the personnel of INIST in December. In November 1989, we started the construction of the buildings. It was very fast construction. In November and December, wetransferred the collections. In January 1990, INIST Diffusion started to function officially. In fact, in January, 1990, we had started to charge the users through INIST Diffusion. Before, it was charged by us but the money was collected by CNRS.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: But, of course, now, those services are entirely digital. They’re online, or on CD-ROMs. Are they no longer printed?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Printing was abandoned in 1992, I think it was.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, what were the reasons for deciding to no longer print? You mentioned escalating costs before.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Also we wanted to move from a publication center to a new center, and we couldn’t do everything. We were selling CD-ROMs, profiles, and bibliographic searches.
We sold other formats because not all our users were able to use CD-ROMs at that time. CD-
ROM use really started in the 1990s.
{{Article body/End}}
===Changes in technology===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were ahead of your time in providing this sort of digital service.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. We were the first in Europe. It was very difficult to choose the technology. In fact, we didn’t choose very good technology because we started with big digital discs. This has not proved to be the best choice.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I assume, though, that there’s a constant transfer of the technology.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We change the technology all the time. The goal of Delacôte was to have a new technology center.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What was the research department doing?

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|26}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They did a lot of bibliometry, automatic indexing, statistics, and infométrie (infometry). It was very important for CNRS to know who was doing what. Of course, this analysis was a preliminary study for the assisted indexing system that they were working on.
:We were working on a linguistic approach with a company called ALETH— segmentation techniques, optical character recognition—a preliminary study of an assisted indexing system evaluation and prospects. They were really a research department. Sometimes, we were a little bit unhappy that they were too research-oriented and not concentrating enough in applications. Then we remembered that we were CNRS, and we couldn’t kill research. [laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There was a development department.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were cognitive sciences. They were studying a lot of things that could help our staff to work better and do some research in cooperation with research institutes from Nancy that worked in linguistics and computers.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was some of what they were doing incorporated into the work of INIST?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Automatic indexing, for example. Pieces of it were incorporated into the computer system. The computer system was quite sophisticated. We had fifty people working on it.
:At one time, the department of development was one guy. [laughter] His goal was to steer the center to where the users wanted it. Honestly, he didn’t work very well. A few things came from it as far as knowing what the researchers wanted. But, you know, the researchers— they don’t even know what they want. You just ask them, “Do you want that?” They say, “Oh, yes, maybe.” Then you come and say, “This is what you asked for.” “Oh, no, that is not what I asked for.” “And what do you want?” Then, “I’m not sure.”
:But, still, the development guy was not completely responsible. In fact, now, these users follow up, et cetera, is done in the marketing department.
:Now, there is only one organization. INIST Diffusion is no longer a filiale . There is only one organization that has obtained, step by step, the right to commercialize. The problem was obtaining approval from the Ministry of Finance.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, just by way of general assessment as to where INIST has come from, where do you see it going? With this approach to commercialization, clearly there has to be, now, some notion of competitiveness with a whole range of other services.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|27}}
:Because you’re in effect competing for the money of clients who have other options being offered by a whole slew of database providers in Europe, in the States, elsewhere. I’m curious as to where INIST fits.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I have to say that, now, with the new director, who is a former administrator of one of the regions, they are coming back to CNRS users. For example, the international relations are much less international relations than they were when I was there. They are selling the services—but they are more centered to French researchers. We never had the idea of competing with other services.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The minute you speak of commercialization, it implies a marketplace in which there is competition.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, but the goal was to be able to collect the money we were gaining—to collect and to spend for ourselves. It was not so much to collect more and more money.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Not profit making.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: No. Our problem was that we were doing better services; we were selling more. All this money was going in a hole without end, which was called the Ministry of Finance. We never saw the results of our work. What we wanted—and what the CNRS has accepted—is, if we have more money, we can do better. We didn’t want to ask for more money, but we did want to do more services. That was the first goal. It was not so much to try to compete with ''Chemical Abstracts'' or whoever else. That was not the goal.
:Don’t forget, it’s a public administration. There were philosophical problems with the British Library at the time. We sometimes thought that they were doing things that were not very polite or not very good.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yes, they were very commercially-oriented.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But it was never at a personal level. We always had excellent relations with people like Brian Lang, David Russon, and Maurice Line. We tried even to have an agreement so that we abandoned the periodicals from which we sold very few articles. But, of course, competition was always in the air.
:Being a public administration, our goal was not to compete with other public administrations. We wanted to be recognized at the European level as a partner. We succeeded in doing that. CDST was never recognized apart from Bulletin Signalétique. INIST was
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|28}}
 

recognized, not only here, but we had visitors from China, Japan, and all over Europe. Big
groups of people were coming to see what we were doing. But we never tried to say we were
better than the English, Germans, or whoever.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The British Library thing interested me because there’s no question that when the
National Lending Library for Science and Technology was set up, they developed a very
commercial outlook. They were interested in making money.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, I have visited them.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: And they do make millions of pounds. I was interested that you were saying that
during the move to Nancy, there were four thousand copies of articles being copied a day at that
time. Which is, again, the sort of thing that the British Library was, you know, seeing as—
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were doing maybe ten thousand requests a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: —I wondered to what extent the development of their service actually impinged
on yours.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It didn’t. They were too expensive.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yours was oriented mostly towards people in France?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: For people in France and all over the world. Because we had periodicals that
some people didn’t have. I don’t know where the users were coming from. Also, the British
Library, at that time, was always very complicated with their coupons, et cetera. But, in fact, we
established the same thing. Now, it’s easier with credit cards but, at one time, we couldn’t
accommodate credit cards.
For two years almost, the center never stopped working. That was a burden. That was
very difficult. I worked thirteen or fourteen hours a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I can believe it.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|29}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But we were lucky. We were like pioneers. I had a group of people that didn’t
count their time. It was really a good group of people. My deputy, in fact, was the latest
director of CDSH. She became the chief of INIST human sciences. It worked very well
because we had been working together for twenty-five years. She was a good friend of mine,
and she played the game.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The section concerned with the human sciences stayed in Paris?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It stayed a little bit longer, and then they moved. Yes.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So they’re all in Nancy now?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Recruiting staff, continuing to work, and installing ourselves in a building
of a new conception from Jean Nouvel is not so easy. Jean Nouvel is an architect with ideas—
you have seen his futuristic buildings. It is not so easy to work in a futurist building. Have you
seen the corridors in the library?
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Oh, yes. It looks fascinating, in terms of design, but I wonder what it would be
like to work in it. What was in this area below?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: That was a computer service.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 4]
[END OF INTERVIEW]
{{Article body/End}}

[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Carrière à l'INIST]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Employment at INIST

2021-04-26T16:05:05Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* Changes in technology */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Employment at INIST==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|20}}
[BREAK IN RECORDING]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I said, “All right, after the weekend, I will write you.” Then he said, “Oh, you know, you have to do it.” I said, “Yes, sure. I’m interested.” He said, “Because, you know, don’t forget, you are in secondment—” I said, “Is that a way of threatening me? If I won’t be good, they won’t continue my secondment?” And I told him, “Oh, please, don’t chantage (blackmail) me because I can stay with the UN as long as I want.” And, of course, in CNRS, you have to stay until sixty-five. “I can stay until sixty-two, anyway, and you can stay two years more. You know, considering the money I’m getting here, I will have more money staying three years less in CNRS than two years more.” [laughter]
{{Article body/End}}
===Transition from the United Nations===
{{Article body/Begin}}

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: He said, “No, that was not what I was trying to do.” I said, “All right.” Then he left. I showed him a little bit of what we were doing. After the weekend, I wrote thirty-two pages of comments on this thing. There were a lot of crazy things I could not understand. And I said that. Then I never heard about anything. Because there were problems in Geneva, the Comité Diplomatique said they didn’t want to pay any more money for the library because there were big problems there. The librarian said, “Over my dead body. There will be no computers in the library.” Finally, they negotiated that I could go to Geneva. I had almost finished my automation in New York, and I moved to Geneva. I was happy to move back to Geneva because my kids were in France. I was a little bit lonely. I went back to Geneva and began working. You cannot believe what Geneva was like. There were rooms full of books. If you opened the door, you just had to run very fast because, otherwise, everything was going to fall on you. [laughter] It was terrible. I started buying computers, doing automation, putting things in order in Geneva.

:One day, two years later, I had a call. “I’m the secretary of the director of CRNS. He wants you to come tomorrow to see him.” I said, “Look, lady, [laughter] I am not working for you. The UN is paying me, and I just cannot. Again, it is during the General Assembly.” [laughter] She said, “Yes. So, when can you come?” I said, “I can come on Saturday.” Then I went on Saturday. It was a big room with the director of CNRS, Goéry Delacôte, the director of information, and the chief of personnel of CNRS. They said, “We were very happy about the comments you did,” et cetera. It happened in forty-five minutes. I was thinking, “They didn’t ask me to come from Geneva to listen to how they were happy about the report that I did.”
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|21}}
 
:They said, “Do you know why we have called you?” I said, “No, I have no idea.” “Well, because we want you to take over the INIST.”

:Then, because I was so shocked, I asked a stupid question. I said, “But, I work for the UN and I have no intention of leaving. I have just renewed my contract for the next two years. What happened to Mr. Jakobiac?” He was supposed to take over INIST. I heard, during the two years, that this guy was in charge of INIST.

:As soon as I asked the question, I knew that it was stupid because then they said, “Non, cela n’a pas marché''; it didn’t work,” et cetera. I was a little bit surprised. They said, “We want you to start immediately.” I said, “Are you joking? I just, six months ago, came from New York. I cannot just leave the UN.” They said, “We are going to get someone to replace you.”

:I said, “Look, there was a story in New York. The director of personnel didn’t want me to go to Geneva. Then Geneva said, ‘We cannot do without you. It’s very important,’ et cetera. There was a battle for me to go to Geneva. The director of the Geneva office is not going to accept that I’m being replaced just like that.” They said, “Then, we will find two people.” [laughter] “All right.”
{{Article body/End}}

===Kofi Annan===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then I went to Geneva and talked to the director of the Geneva office—he was a Belgian man at the time. He said, “They are crazy. There is no way. Look, if you want to go back—” I said, “Look, this is my organization. They can force me to go back.” “They wouldn’t force you.” At the same time, the French said, “All right, we can force you.” But it would take two years—going to tribunal.

:Finally, I negotiated that I could do some work with the ''conseil de projet'' (project council) on Saturdays and my vacation days. Which meant, in 1987, I didn’t have any vacation days. I used all my vacation days so that I could find someone to replace me in Geneva and that to give them time for the hiring process. In fact, it was Mr. Kofi Annan, the chief of personnel, who is now the director general. I met him in the French embassy and we negotiated my replacement.
{{Article body/End}}

===Founding of INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then the INIST story started. I discovered that it was going to be very difficult because all the people said, “It’s impossible. It cannot be done.” I talked to some of the people. “You’re crazy to try to do it,” they said. I said, “It could be interesting to start something.” But,all the people said, “No, it’s not feasible. It’s impossible.” INIST started with a lot of difficulties. I moved to Nancy. I was one person with only a secretary and her husband to help me.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:What were all the difficulties that people were referring to?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The difficulties were that the CDST was not prepared to move. We had a library of twenty-seven thousand titles of periodicals on ten floors.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|22}}
 
:We had to move all that, but we could not stop working. We had four thousand requests for photocopies a day at that time. A day! How do you continue to do that? We had to build a building and figure out where to put the staff. Then the staff didn’t want to go. Altogether, thirty people from the whole CNRS went. We had to recruit about three or four hundred people—newcomers—train them, and put them somewhere. When we recruited them, there was nowhere to sit; we had to rent space. We were even in a small castle from the eighteenth century. In this castle alone with a secretary. [laughter] I had to rent in a building the rooms to put the people I was recruiting in. All these people had to be recruited through a National Caucus. It was competitions, because it’s administration. It was a post of a fonctionnaire (civil servant).

:Recruitment was not so easy. I needed ten people as a jury. We had a written exam and then an oral one. We were recruiting twenty-five people at one time. I worked in five places: CDST, rue Boyer, where the remaining staff was; Boulevard Raspail, where CDSH was, the human sciences; and Château du Montet, where I was officially located. But, for political reasons, they wanted me to go there. I was an important person there. I had taken some other things, but we have not time to go through—from the press.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 3]
{{Article body/End}}

===Moving to Nancy, France. ===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Phillips Company moved to the suburbs of Nancy, and they left a big place that we started to use for newcomers. Then, I was at Château du Montet; some people were in Vendoeuvre, in a building where we just rented some rooms; and others were in two places in Paris. In those days, my train left at 6:15 in the morning. Fortunately, they gave me a driver. The driver brought me to the station at six o’clock; at 6:15, I got the train. I arrived in Paris at 9:00 am. I had a driver taking me, and the driver was carrying me to the two centers, from center to center, mostly to CDST because of where we had the library. And at 6:15 pm, I was taking the train back. I arrived at about 10:30 pm to eleven o’clock three times a week.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Sounds appalling.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The rest of the time, I was in Nancy. I did that for three years. [laughter] I wasfortunate to have good health at that time. We started building the new building. I had tofollow the building project and, at the same time, continue to recruit, train, and movepeople.We moved the collections in six weeks, and we neverstopped serving the users. We managedthis because we had prepared the places of the collections by computer. During the day, we puteverythingin a truck andduring the nightwe moved.Then thenext day, the collections wereput in placeand we’d start all over again. We used two trucks a day.

:There were machines left in CDST, and we bought new machines for INIST. As soon as the orders came, we filled them from INIST or CDST. They said it would be impossible. When I told Caroline Wiegandt-Sakoun, a librarian, she thought I was crazy.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|23}}
 
:Not on a big collection; we have changed the places of collection in a library from Vienna. All the collection on drugs came to us, and we moved that from Vienna to Geneva.
{{Article body/End}}
===Recruitment of staff===
{{Article body/Begin}}
:The people worked very hard. Even the people in CDST who were not going to stay did a marvelous job. We hired new people.
:The first people we hired were the ''magasiniers'' (shopkeepers) to put things in place. Every night, there was a librarian staying with them to see that there were no particular questions about where to put things.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Were you still doing the work on developing the database at this time?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:: Yes. The new periodicals were arriving at Nancy, which meant the new people were working on them. The CDST was doing the backlog because some of the people were leaving, and some others didn’t want to work anymore because they were leaving—[gunshot]—midi (noon).
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There’s a gunshot at noon?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, every day at 12:00 pm. So that you can check your watch.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The building site started when?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It started in November, 1987.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: When you were recruiting the staff to set the service up—you had over three hundred people.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. More. We had three hundred fifty, plus the staff to do abstracts from home. Yes, some of the people were doing abstracts at home. Then we started doing them online from home also.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What proportion of the abstracts was done outside by this piecework process? It was a piecework process, really, wasn’t it?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Maybe half of the abstracts. But much less of the indexing was done that way.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|24}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The indexing was done in-house, essentially.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes.
{{Article body/End}}

===Differences between Centre de Documentation Scientifique et Technique [CDST] and INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Let’s talk a little about the changing philosophy and the approach represented in the INIST as opposed to the earlier CDST. Because so few of the staff actually transferred, it was actually a new organization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. This was what we wanted. The most important change was that commercialization became an important part. We tried—and it is very difficult in an organization that is a public administration—to have a commercial department. We were not supposed to sell things. But we obtained permission from the Ministry of Finance to create a filiale (subsidiary company), the commercialization section.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: This is like a company that’s set up apart?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, a filiale is a part of the INIST group. In the INIST group we had INIST and INIST Diffusion. INIST Diffusion was in charge of commercialization. There were thirty or so employees. INIST had several directorates and one department of research. There was a directorate of production, development, external relations, administration and finance, and this filiale.
====INIST Diffusion====
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was commercialization held at arm’s length?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. It was a part of the company but was separate. INIST Diffusion was in charge of the commercialization and promotion of the product. It had the exclusivity of promotion and commercialization of all the INIST products. They say it’s an interface to adapt the offer to the demand. They were also able to collect the money that we were not able to.
:We were only able to spend money. It was a big budget, four hundred million francs a year. We had a big budget, but we had a controller. You can’t spend twenty cents without the controller’s approval about the way it was spent. The filiale was created in October, 1988.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: That was very close to the beginning.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|25}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: On 15 March 1987, the institute was officially created. But the conception of it started earlier. In September, with the director general of CNRS, we decided to start. We started recruiting the personnel of INIST in December. In November 1989, we started the construction of the buildings. It was very fast construction. In November and December, wetransferred the collections. In January 1990, INIST Diffusion started to function officially. In fact, in January, 1990, we had started to charge the users through INIST Diffusion. Before, it was charged by us but the money was collected by CNRS.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: But, of course, now, those services are entirely digital. They’re online, or on CD-ROMs. Are they no longer printed?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Printing was abandoned in 1992, I think it was.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, what were the reasons for deciding to no longer print? You mentioned escalating costs before.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Also we wanted to move from a publication center to a new center, and we couldn’t do everything. We were selling CD-ROMs, profiles, and bibliographic searches.
We sold other formats because not all our users were able to use CD-ROMs at that time. CD-
ROM use really started in the 1990s.
{{Article body/End}}
===Changes in technology===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were ahead of your time in providing this sort of digital service.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. We were the first in Europe. It was very difficult to choose the technology. In fact, we didn’t choose very good technology because we started with big digital discs. This has not proved to be the best choice.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I assume, though, that there’s a constant transfer of the technology.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We change the technology all the time. The goal of Delacôte was to have a new technology center.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What was the research department doing?

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|26}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They did a lot of bibliometry, automatic indexing, statistics, and infométrie (infometry). It was very important for CNRS to know who was doing what. Of course, this analysis was a preliminary study for the assisted indexing system that they were working on.
:We were working on a linguistic approach with a company called ALETH— segmentation techniques, optical character recognition—a preliminary study of an assisted indexing system evaluation and prospects. They were really a research department. Sometimes, we were a little bit unhappy that they were too research-oriented and not concentrating enough in applications. Then we remembered that we were CNRS, and we couldn’t kill research. [laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There was a development department.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were cognitive sciences. They were studying a lot of things that could help our staff to work better and do some research in cooperation with research institutes from Nancy that worked in linguistics and computers.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was some of what they were doing incorporated into the work of INIST?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Automatic indexing, for example. Pieces of it were incorporated into the computer system. The computer system was quite sophisticated. We had fifty people working on it.
:At one time, the department of development was one guy. [laughter] His goal was to steer the center to where the users wanted it. Honestly, he didn’t work very well. A few things came from it as far as knowing what the researchers wanted. But, you know, the researchers— they don’t even know what they want. You just ask them, “Do you want that?” They say, “Oh, yes, maybe.” Then you come and say, “This is what you asked for.” “Oh, no, that is not what I asked for.” “And what do you want?” Then, “I’m not sure.”
:But, still, the development guy was not completely responsible. In fact, now, these users follow up, et cetera, is done in the marketing department.
:Now, there is only one organization. INIST Diffusion is no longer a filiale . There is only one organization that has obtained, step by step, the right to commercialize. The problem was obtaining approval from the Ministry of Finance.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, just by way of general assessment as to where INIST has come from, where do you see it going? With this approach to commercialization, clearly there has to be, now, some notion of competitiveness with a whole range of other services.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|27}}
:Because you’re in effect competing for the money of clients who have other options being offered by a whole slew of
database providers in Europe, in the States, elsewhere. I’m curious as to where INIST fits.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I have to say that, now, with the new director, who is a former administrator of one of the regions, they are coming back to CNRS users. For example, the international relations are much less international relations than they were when I was there. They are selling the services—but they are more centered to French researchers. We never had the idea of competing with other services.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The minute you speak of commercialization, it implies a marketplace in which there is competition.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, but the goal was to be able to collect the money we were gaining—to
collect and to spend for ourselves. It was not so much to collect more and more money.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Not profit making.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: No. Our problem was that we were doing better services; we were selling more.
All this money was going in a hole without end, which was called the Ministry of Finance. We
never saw the results of our work. What we wanted—and what the CNRS has accepted—is, if
we have more money, we can do better. We didn’t want to ask for more money, but we did
want to do more services. That was the first goal. It was not so much to try to compete with
Chemical Abstracts or whoever else. That was not the goal.
Don’t forget, it’s a public administration. There were philosophical problems with the
British Library at the time. We sometimes thought that they were doing things that were not
very polite or not very good.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yes, they were very commercially-oriented.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But it was never at a personal level. We always had excellent relations with
people like Brian Lang, David Russon, and Maurice Line. We tried even to have an agreement
so that we abandoned the periodicals from which we sold very few articles. But, of course,
competition was always in the air.
Being a public administration, our goal was not to compete with other public
administrations. We wanted to be recognized at the European level as a partner. We succeeded
in doing that. CDST was never recognized apart from Bulletin Signalétique. INIST was
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|28}}
 

recognized, not only here, but we had visitors from China, Japan, and all over Europe. Big
groups of people were coming to see what we were doing. But we never tried to say we were
better than the English, Germans, or whoever.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The British Library thing interested me because there’s no question that when the
National Lending Library for Science and Technology was set up, they developed a very
commercial outlook. They were interested in making money.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, I have visited them.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: And they do make millions of pounds. I was interested that you were saying that
during the move to Nancy, there were four thousand copies of articles being copied a day at that
time. Which is, again, the sort of thing that the British Library was, you know, seeing as—
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were doing maybe ten thousand requests a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: —I wondered to what extent the development of their service actually impinged
on yours.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It didn’t. They were too expensive.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yours was oriented mostly towards people in France?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: For people in France and all over the world. Because we had periodicals that
some people didn’t have. I don’t know where the users were coming from. Also, the British
Library, at that time, was always very complicated with their coupons, et cetera. But, in fact, we
established the same thing. Now, it’s easier with credit cards but, at one time, we couldn’t
accommodate credit cards.
For two years almost, the center never stopped working. That was a burden. That was
very difficult. I worked thirteen or fourteen hours a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I can believe it.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|29}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But we were lucky. We were like pioneers. I had a group of people that didn’t
count their time. It was really a good group of people. My deputy, in fact, was the latest
director of CDSH. She became the chief of INIST human sciences. It worked very well
because we had been working together for twenty-five years. She was a good friend of mine,
and she played the game.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The section concerned with the human sciences stayed in Paris?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It stayed a little bit longer, and then they moved. Yes.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So they’re all in Nancy now?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Recruiting staff, continuing to work, and installing ourselves in a building
of a new conception from Jean Nouvel is not so easy. Jean Nouvel is an architect with ideas—
you have seen his futuristic buildings. It is not so easy to work in a futurist building. Have you
seen the corridors in the library?
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Oh, yes. It looks fascinating, in terms of design, but I wonder what it would be
like to work in it. What was in this area below?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: That was a computer service.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 4]
[END OF INTERVIEW]
{{Article body/End}}

[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Carrière à l'INIST]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Employment at INIST

2021-04-26T10:08:28Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* Changes in technology */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Employment at INIST==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|20}}
[BREAK IN RECORDING]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I said, “All right, after the weekend, I will write you.” Then he said, “Oh, you know, you have to do it.” I said, “Yes, sure. I’m interested.” He said, “Because, you know, don’t forget, you are in secondment—” I said, “Is that a way of threatening me? If I won’t be good, they won’t continue my secondment?” And I told him, “Oh, please, don’t chantage (blackmail) me because I can stay with the UN as long as I want.” And, of course, in CNRS, you have to stay until sixty-five. “I can stay until sixty-two, anyway, and you can stay two years more. You know, considering the money I’m getting here, I will have more money staying three years less in CNRS than two years more.” [laughter]
{{Article body/End}}
===Transition from the United Nations===
{{Article body/Begin}}

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: He said, “No, that was not what I was trying to do.” I said, “All right.” Then he left. I showed him a little bit of what we were doing. After the weekend, I wrote thirty-two pages of comments on this thing. There were a lot of crazy things I could not understand. And I said that. Then I never heard about anything. Because there were problems in Geneva, the Comité Diplomatique said they didn’t want to pay any more money for the library because there were big problems there. The librarian said, “Over my dead body. There will be no computers in the library.” Finally, they negotiated that I could go to Geneva. I had almost finished my automation in New York, and I moved to Geneva. I was happy to move back to Geneva because my kids were in France. I was a little bit lonely. I went back to Geneva and began working. You cannot believe what Geneva was like. There were rooms full of books. If you opened the door, you just had to run very fast because, otherwise, everything was going to fall on you. [laughter] It was terrible. I started buying computers, doing automation, putting things in order in Geneva.

:One day, two years later, I had a call. “I’m the secretary of the director of CRNS. He wants you to come tomorrow to see him.” I said, “Look, lady, [laughter] I am not working for you. The UN is paying me, and I just cannot. Again, it is during the General Assembly.” [laughter] She said, “Yes. So, when can you come?” I said, “I can come on Saturday.” Then I went on Saturday. It was a big room with the director of CNRS, Goéry Delacôte, the director of information, and the chief of personnel of CNRS. They said, “We were very happy about the comments you did,” et cetera. It happened in forty-five minutes. I was thinking, “They didn’t ask me to come from Geneva to listen to how they were happy about the report that I did.”
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|21}}
 
:They said, “Do you know why we have called you?” I said, “No, I have no idea.” “Well, because we want you to take over the INIST.”

:Then, because I was so shocked, I asked a stupid question. I said, “But, I work for the UN and I have no intention of leaving. I have just renewed my contract for the next two years. What happened to Mr. Jakobiac?” He was supposed to take over INIST. I heard, during the two years, that this guy was in charge of INIST.

:As soon as I asked the question, I knew that it was stupid because then they said, “Non, cela n’a pas marché''; it didn’t work,” et cetera. I was a little bit surprised. They said, “We want you to start immediately.” I said, “Are you joking? I just, six months ago, came from New York. I cannot just leave the UN.” They said, “We are going to get someone to replace you.”

:I said, “Look, there was a story in New York. The director of personnel didn’t want me to go to Geneva. Then Geneva said, ‘We cannot do without you. It’s very important,’ et cetera. There was a battle for me to go to Geneva. The director of the Geneva office is not going to accept that I’m being replaced just like that.” They said, “Then, we will find two people.” [laughter] “All right.”
{{Article body/End}}

===Kofi Annan===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then I went to Geneva and talked to the director of the Geneva office—he was a Belgian man at the time. He said, “They are crazy. There is no way. Look, if you want to go back—” I said, “Look, this is my organization. They can force me to go back.” “They wouldn’t force you.” At the same time, the French said, “All right, we can force you.” But it would take two years—going to tribunal.

:Finally, I negotiated that I could do some work with the ''conseil de projet'' (project council) on Saturdays and my vacation days. Which meant, in 1987, I didn’t have any vacation days. I used all my vacation days so that I could find someone to replace me in Geneva and that to give them time for the hiring process. In fact, it was Mr. Kofi Annan, the chief of personnel, who is now the director general. I met him in the French embassy and we negotiated my replacement.
{{Article body/End}}

===Founding of INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then the INIST story started. I discovered that it was going to be very difficult because all the people said, “It’s impossible. It cannot be done.” I talked to some of the people. “You’re crazy to try to do it,” they said. I said, “It could be interesting to start something.” But,all the people said, “No, it’s not feasible. It’s impossible.” INIST started with a lot of difficulties. I moved to Nancy. I was one person with only a secretary and her husband to help me.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:What were all the difficulties that people were referring to?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The difficulties were that the CDST was not prepared to move. We had a library of twenty-seven thousand titles of periodicals on ten floors.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|22}}
 
:We had to move all that, but we could not stop working. We had four thousand requests for photocopies a day at that time. A day! How do you continue to do that? We had to build a building and figure out where to put the staff. Then the staff didn’t want to go. Altogether, thirty people from the whole CNRS went. We had to recruit about three or four hundred people—newcomers—train them, and put them somewhere. When we recruited them, there was nowhere to sit; we had to rent space. We were even in a small castle from the eighteenth century. In this castle alone with a secretary. [laughter] I had to rent in a building the rooms to put the people I was recruiting in. All these people had to be recruited through a National Caucus. It was competitions, because it’s administration. It was a post of a fonctionnaire (civil servant).

:Recruitment was not so easy. I needed ten people as a jury. We had a written exam and then an oral one. We were recruiting twenty-five people at one time. I worked in five places: CDST, rue Boyer, where the remaining staff was; Boulevard Raspail, where CDSH was, the human sciences; and Château du Montet, where I was officially located. But, for political reasons, they wanted me to go there. I was an important person there. I had taken some other things, but we have not time to go through—from the press.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 3]
{{Article body/End}}

===Moving to Nancy, France. ===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Phillips Company moved to the suburbs of Nancy, and they left a big place that we started to use for newcomers. Then, I was at Château du Montet; some people were in Vendoeuvre, in a building where we just rented some rooms; and others were in two places in Paris. In those days, my train left at 6:15 in the morning. Fortunately, they gave me a driver. The driver brought me to the station at six o’clock; at 6:15, I got the train. I arrived in Paris at 9:00 am. I had a driver taking me, and the driver was carrying me to the two centers, from center to center, mostly to CDST because of where we had the library. And at 6:15 pm, I was taking the train back. I arrived at about 10:30 pm to eleven o’clock three times a week.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Sounds appalling.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The rest of the time, I was in Nancy. I did that for three years. [laughter] I wasfortunate to have good health at that time. We started building the new building. I had tofollow the building project and, at the same time, continue to recruit, train, and movepeople.We moved the collections in six weeks, and we neverstopped serving the users. We managedthis because we had prepared the places of the collections by computer. During the day, we puteverythingin a truck andduring the nightwe moved.Then thenext day, the collections wereput in placeand we’d start all over again. We used two trucks a day.

:There were machines left in CDST, and we bought new machines for INIST. As soon as the orders came, we filled them from INIST or CDST. They said it would be impossible. When I told Caroline Wiegandt-Sakoun, a librarian, she thought I was crazy.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|23}}
 
:Not on a big collection; we have changed the places of collection in a library from Vienna. All the collection on drugs came to us, and we moved that from Vienna to Geneva.
{{Article body/End}}
===Recruitment of staff===
{{Article body/Begin}}
:The people worked very hard. Even the people in CDST who were not going to stay did a marvelous job. We hired new people.
:The first people we hired were the ''magasiniers'' (shopkeepers) to put things in place. Every night, there was a librarian staying with them to see that there were no particular questions about where to put things.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Were you still doing the work on developing the database at this time?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:: Yes. The new periodicals were arriving at Nancy, which meant the new people were working on them. The CDST was doing the backlog because some of the people were leaving, and some others didn’t want to work anymore because they were leaving—[gunshot]—midi (noon).
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There’s a gunshot at noon?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, every day at 12:00 pm. So that you can check your watch.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The building site started when?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It started in November, 1987.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: When you were recruiting the staff to set the service up—you had over three hundred people.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. More. We had three hundred fifty, plus the staff to do abstracts from home. Yes, some of the people were doing abstracts at home. Then we started doing them online from home also.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What proportion of the abstracts was done outside by this piecework process? It was a piecework process, really, wasn’t it?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Maybe half of the abstracts. But much less of the indexing was done that way.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|24}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The indexing was done in-house, essentially.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes.
{{Article body/End}}

===Differences between Centre de Documentation Scientifique et Technique [CDST] and INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Let’s talk a little about the changing philosophy and the approach represented in the INIST as opposed to the earlier CDST. Because so few of the staff actually transferred, it was actually a new organization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. This was what we wanted. The most important change was that commercialization became an important part. We tried—and it is very difficult in an organization that is a public administration—to have a commercial department. We were not supposed to sell things. But we obtained permission from the Ministry of Finance to create a filiale (subsidiary company), the commercialization section.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: This is like a company that’s set up apart?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, a filiale is a part of the INIST group. In the INIST group we had INIST and INIST Diffusion. INIST Diffusion was in charge of commercialization. There were thirty or so employees. INIST had several directorates and one department of research. There was a directorate of production, development, external relations, administration and finance, and this filiale.
====INIST Diffusion====
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was commercialization held at arm’s length?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. It was a part of the company but was separate. INIST Diffusion was in charge of the commercialization and promotion of the product. It had the exclusivity of promotion and commercialization of all the INIST products. They say it’s an interface to adapt the offer to the demand. They were also able to collect the money that we were not able to.
:We were only able to spend money. It was a big budget, four hundred million francs a year. We had a big budget, but we had a controller. You can’t spend twenty cents without the controller’s approval about the way it was spent. The filiale was created in October, 1988.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: That was very close to the beginning.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|25}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: On 15 March 1987, the institute was officially created. But the conception of it started earlier. In September, with the director general of CNRS, we decided to start. We started recruiting the personnel of INIST in December. In November 1989, we started the construction of the buildings. It was very fast construction. In November and December, wetransferred the collections. In January 1990, INIST Diffusion started to function officially. In fact, in January, 1990, we had started to charge the users through INIST Diffusion. Before, it was charged by us but the money was collected by CNRS.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: But, of course, now, those services are entirely digital. They’re online, or on CD-ROMs. Are they no longer printed?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Printing was abandoned in 1992, I think it was.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, what were the reasons for deciding to no longer print? You mentioned escalating costs before.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Also we wanted to move from a publication center to a new center, and we couldn’t do everything. We were selling CD-ROMs, profiles, and bibliographic searches.
We sold other formats because not all our users were able to use CD-ROMs at that time. CD-
ROM use really started in the 1990s.
{{Article body/End}}
===Changes in technology===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were ahead of your time in providing this sort of digital service.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. We were the first in Europe. It was very difficult to choose the technology. In fact, we didn’t choose very good technology because we started with big digital discs. This has not proved to be the best choice.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I assume, though, that there’s a constant transfer of the technology.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We change the technology all the time. The goal of Delacôte was to have a new technology center.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What was the research department doing?

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|26}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They did a lot of bibliometry, automatic indexing, statistics, and infométrie (infometry). It was very important for CNRS to know who was doing what. Of course, this analysis was a preliminary study for the assisted indexing system that they were working on.
:We were working on a linguistic approach with a company called ALETH— segmentation techniques, optical character recognition—a preliminary study of an assisted indexing system evaluation and prospects. They were really a research department. Sometimes, we were a little bit unhappy that they were too research-oriented and not concentrating enough in applications. Then we remembered that we were CNRS, and we couldn’t kill research. [laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There was a development department.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were cognitive sciences. They were studying a lot of things that could help our staff to work better and do some research in cooperation with research institutes from Nancy that worked in linguistics and computers.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was some of what they were doing incorporated into the work of INIST?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Automatic indexing, for example. Pieces of it were incorporated into the computer system. The computer system was quite sophisticated. We had fifty people working on it.
:At one time, the department of development was one guy. [laughter] His goal was to
steer the center to where the users wanted it. Honestly, he didn’t work very well. A few things
came from it as far as knowing what the researchers wanted. But, you know, the researchers—
they don’t even know what they want. You just ask them, “Do you want that?” They say, “Oh,
yes, maybe.” Then you come and say, “This is what you asked for.” “Oh, no, that is not what I
asked for.” “And what do you want?” Then, “I’m not sure.”
But, still, the development guy was not completely responsible. In fact, now, these users
follow up, et cetera, is done in the marketing department.
Now, there is only one organization. INIST Diffusion is no longer a filiale . There is
only one organization that has obtained, step by step, the right to commercialize. The problem
was obtaining approval from the Ministry of Finance.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, just by way of general assessment as to where INIST has come from, where
do you see it going? With this approach to commercialization, clearly there has to be, now,
some notion of competitiveness with a whole range of other services.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|27}}
 
Because you’re in effect competing for the money of clients who have other options being offered by a whole slew of
database providers in Europe, in the States, elsewhere. I’m curious as to where INIST fits.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I have to say that, now, with the new director, who is a former administrator of
one of the regions, they are coming back to CNRS users. For example, the international
relations are much less international relations than they were when I was there. They are selling
the services—but they are more centered to French researchers. We never had the idea of
competing with other services.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The minute you speak of commercialization, it implies a marketplace in which
there is competition.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, but the goal was to be able to collect the money we were gaining—to
collect and to spend for ourselves. It was not so much to collect more and more money.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Not profit making.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: No. Our problem was that we were doing better services; we were selling more.
All this money was going in a hole without end, which was called the Ministry of Finance. We
never saw the results of our work. What we wanted—and what the CNRS has accepted—is, if
we have more money, we can do better. We didn’t want to ask for more money, but we did
want to do more services. That was the first goal. It was not so much to try to compete with
Chemical Abstracts or whoever else. That was not the goal.
Don’t forget, it’s a public administration. There were philosophical problems with the
British Library at the time. We sometimes thought that they were doing things that were not
very polite or not very good.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yes, they were very commercially-oriented.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But it was never at a personal level. We always had excellent relations with
people like Brian Lang, David Russon, and Maurice Line. We tried even to have an agreement
so that we abandoned the periodicals from which we sold very few articles. But, of course,
competition was always in the air.
Being a public administration, our goal was not to compete with other public
administrations. We wanted to be recognized at the European level as a partner. We succeeded
in doing that. CDST was never recognized apart from Bulletin Signalétique. INIST was
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|28}}
 

recognized, not only here, but we had visitors from China, Japan, and all over Europe. Big
groups of people were coming to see what we were doing. But we never tried to say we were
better than the English, Germans, or whoever.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The British Library thing interested me because there’s no question that when the
National Lending Library for Science and Technology was set up, they developed a very
commercial outlook. They were interested in making money.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, I have visited them.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: And they do make millions of pounds. I was interested that you were saying that
during the move to Nancy, there were four thousand copies of articles being copied a day at that
time. Which is, again, the sort of thing that the British Library was, you know, seeing as—
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were doing maybe ten thousand requests a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: —I wondered to what extent the development of their service actually impinged
on yours.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It didn’t. They were too expensive.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yours was oriented mostly towards people in France?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: For people in France and all over the world. Because we had periodicals that
some people didn’t have. I don’t know where the users were coming from. Also, the British
Library, at that time, was always very complicated with their coupons, et cetera. But, in fact, we
established the same thing. Now, it’s easier with credit cards but, at one time, we couldn’t
accommodate credit cards.
For two years almost, the center never stopped working. That was a burden. That was
very difficult. I worked thirteen or fourteen hours a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I can believe it.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|29}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But we were lucky. We were like pioneers. I had a group of people that didn’t
count their time. It was really a good group of people. My deputy, in fact, was the latest
director of CDSH. She became the chief of INIST human sciences. It worked very well
because we had been working together for twenty-five years. She was a good friend of mine,
and she played the game.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The section concerned with the human sciences stayed in Paris?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It stayed a little bit longer, and then they moved. Yes.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So they’re all in Nancy now?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Recruiting staff, continuing to work, and installing ourselves in a building
of a new conception from Jean Nouvel is not so easy. Jean Nouvel is an architect with ideas—
you have seen his futuristic buildings. It is not so easy to work in a futurist building. Have you
seen the corridors in the library?
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Oh, yes. It looks fascinating, in terms of design, but I wonder what it would be
like to work in it. What was in this area below?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: That was a computer service.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 4]
[END OF INTERVIEW]
{{Article body/End}}

[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Carrière à l'INIST]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Employment at INIST

2021-04-26T10:07:07Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* Changes in technology */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Employment at INIST==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|20}}
[BREAK IN RECORDING]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I said, “All right, after the weekend, I will write you.” Then he said, “Oh, you know, you have to do it.” I said, “Yes, sure. I’m interested.” He said, “Because, you know, don’t forget, you are in secondment—” I said, “Is that a way of threatening me? If I won’t be good, they won’t continue my secondment?” And I told him, “Oh, please, don’t chantage (blackmail) me because I can stay with the UN as long as I want.” And, of course, in CNRS, you have to stay until sixty-five. “I can stay until sixty-two, anyway, and you can stay two years more. You know, considering the money I’m getting here, I will have more money staying three years less in CNRS than two years more.” [laughter]
{{Article body/End}}
===Transition from the United Nations===
{{Article body/Begin}}

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: He said, “No, that was not what I was trying to do.” I said, “All right.” Then he left. I showed him a little bit of what we were doing. After the weekend, I wrote thirty-two pages of comments on this thing. There were a lot of crazy things I could not understand. And I said that. Then I never heard about anything. Because there were problems in Geneva, the Comité Diplomatique said they didn’t want to pay any more money for the library because there were big problems there. The librarian said, “Over my dead body. There will be no computers in the library.” Finally, they negotiated that I could go to Geneva. I had almost finished my automation in New York, and I moved to Geneva. I was happy to move back to Geneva because my kids were in France. I was a little bit lonely. I went back to Geneva and began working. You cannot believe what Geneva was like. There were rooms full of books. If you opened the door, you just had to run very fast because, otherwise, everything was going to fall on you. [laughter] It was terrible. I started buying computers, doing automation, putting things in order in Geneva.

:One day, two years later, I had a call. “I’m the secretary of the director of CRNS. He wants you to come tomorrow to see him.” I said, “Look, lady, [laughter] I am not working for you. The UN is paying me, and I just cannot. Again, it is during the General Assembly.” [laughter] She said, “Yes. So, when can you come?” I said, “I can come on Saturday.” Then I went on Saturday. It was a big room with the director of CNRS, Goéry Delacôte, the director of information, and the chief of personnel of CNRS. They said, “We were very happy about the comments you did,” et cetera. It happened in forty-five minutes. I was thinking, “They didn’t ask me to come from Geneva to listen to how they were happy about the report that I did.”
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|21}}
 
:They said, “Do you know why we have called you?” I said, “No, I have no idea.” “Well, because we want you to take over the INIST.”

:Then, because I was so shocked, I asked a stupid question. I said, “But, I work for the UN and I have no intention of leaving. I have just renewed my contract for the next two years. What happened to Mr. Jakobiac?” He was supposed to take over INIST. I heard, during the two years, that this guy was in charge of INIST.

:As soon as I asked the question, I knew that it was stupid because then they said, “Non, cela n’a pas marché''; it didn’t work,” et cetera. I was a little bit surprised. They said, “We want you to start immediately.” I said, “Are you joking? I just, six months ago, came from New York. I cannot just leave the UN.” They said, “We are going to get someone to replace you.”

:I said, “Look, there was a story in New York. The director of personnel didn’t want me to go to Geneva. Then Geneva said, ‘We cannot do without you. It’s very important,’ et cetera. There was a battle for me to go to Geneva. The director of the Geneva office is not going to accept that I’m being replaced just like that.” They said, “Then, we will find two people.” [laughter] “All right.”
{{Article body/End}}

===Kofi Annan===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then I went to Geneva and talked to the director of the Geneva office—he was a Belgian man at the time. He said, “They are crazy. There is no way. Look, if you want to go back—” I said, “Look, this is my organization. They can force me to go back.” “They wouldn’t force you.” At the same time, the French said, “All right, we can force you.” But it would take two years—going to tribunal.

:Finally, I negotiated that I could do some work with the ''conseil de projet'' (project council) on Saturdays and my vacation days. Which meant, in 1987, I didn’t have any vacation days. I used all my vacation days so that I could find someone to replace me in Geneva and that to give them time for the hiring process. In fact, it was Mr. Kofi Annan, the chief of personnel, who is now the director general. I met him in the French embassy and we negotiated my replacement.
{{Article body/End}}

===Founding of INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then the INIST story started. I discovered that it was going to be very difficult because all the people said, “It’s impossible. It cannot be done.” I talked to some of the people. “You’re crazy to try to do it,” they said. I said, “It could be interesting to start something.” But,all the people said, “No, it’s not feasible. It’s impossible.” INIST started with a lot of difficulties. I moved to Nancy. I was one person with only a secretary and her husband to help me.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:What were all the difficulties that people were referring to?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The difficulties were that the CDST was not prepared to move. We had a library of twenty-seven thousand titles of periodicals on ten floors.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|22}}
 
:We had to move all that, but we could not stop working. We had four thousand requests for photocopies a day at that time. A day! How do you continue to do that? We had to build a building and figure out where to put the staff. Then the staff didn’t want to go. Altogether, thirty people from the whole CNRS went. We had to recruit about three or four hundred people—newcomers—train them, and put them somewhere. When we recruited them, there was nowhere to sit; we had to rent space. We were even in a small castle from the eighteenth century. In this castle alone with a secretary. [laughter] I had to rent in a building the rooms to put the people I was recruiting in. All these people had to be recruited through a National Caucus. It was competitions, because it’s administration. It was a post of a fonctionnaire (civil servant).

:Recruitment was not so easy. I needed ten people as a jury. We had a written exam and then an oral one. We were recruiting twenty-five people at one time. I worked in five places: CDST, rue Boyer, where the remaining staff was; Boulevard Raspail, where CDSH was, the human sciences; and Château du Montet, where I was officially located. But, for political reasons, they wanted me to go there. I was an important person there. I had taken some other things, but we have not time to go through—from the press.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 3]
{{Article body/End}}

===Moving to Nancy, France. ===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Phillips Company moved to the suburbs of Nancy, and they left a big place that we started to use for newcomers. Then, I was at Château du Montet; some people were in Vendoeuvre, in a building where we just rented some rooms; and others were in two places in Paris. In those days, my train left at 6:15 in the morning. Fortunately, they gave me a driver. The driver brought me to the station at six o’clock; at 6:15, I got the train. I arrived in Paris at 9:00 am. I had a driver taking me, and the driver was carrying me to the two centers, from center to center, mostly to CDST because of where we had the library. And at 6:15 pm, I was taking the train back. I arrived at about 10:30 pm to eleven o’clock three times a week.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Sounds appalling.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The rest of the time, I was in Nancy. I did that for three years. [laughter] I wasfortunate to have good health at that time. We started building the new building. I had tofollow the building project and, at the same time, continue to recruit, train, and movepeople.We moved the collections in six weeks, and we neverstopped serving the users. We managedthis because we had prepared the places of the collections by computer. During the day, we puteverythingin a truck andduring the nightwe moved.Then thenext day, the collections wereput in placeand we’d start all over again. We used two trucks a day.

:There were machines left in CDST, and we bought new machines for INIST. As soon as the orders came, we filled them from INIST or CDST. They said it would be impossible. When I told Caroline Wiegandt-Sakoun, a librarian, she thought I was crazy.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|23}}
 
:Not on a big collection; we have changed the places of collection in a library from Vienna. All the collection on drugs came to us, and we moved that from Vienna to Geneva.
{{Article body/End}}
===Recruitment of staff===
{{Article body/Begin}}
:The people worked very hard. Even the people in CDST who were not going to stay did a marvelous job. We hired new people.
:The first people we hired were the ''magasiniers'' (shopkeepers) to put things in place. Every night, there was a librarian staying with them to see that there were no particular questions about where to put things.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Were you still doing the work on developing the database at this time?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:: Yes. The new periodicals were arriving at Nancy, which meant the new people were working on them. The CDST was doing the backlog because some of the people were leaving, and some others didn’t want to work anymore because they were leaving—[gunshot]—midi (noon).
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There’s a gunshot at noon?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, every day at 12:00 pm. So that you can check your watch.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The building site started when?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It started in November, 1987.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: When you were recruiting the staff to set the service up—you had over three hundred people.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. More. We had three hundred fifty, plus the staff to do abstracts from home. Yes, some of the people were doing abstracts at home. Then we started doing them online from home also.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What proportion of the abstracts was done outside by this piecework process? It was a piecework process, really, wasn’t it?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Maybe half of the abstracts. But much less of the indexing was done that way.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|24}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The indexing was done in-house, essentially.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes.
{{Article body/End}}

===Differences between Centre de Documentation Scientifique et Technique [CDST] and INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Let’s talk a little about the changing philosophy and the approach represented in the INIST as opposed to the earlier CDST. Because so few of the staff actually transferred, it was actually a new organization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. This was what we wanted. The most important change was that commercialization became an important part. We tried—and it is very difficult in an organization that is a public administration—to have a commercial department. We were not supposed to sell things. But we obtained permission from the Ministry of Finance to create a filiale (subsidiary company), the commercialization section.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: This is like a company that’s set up apart?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, a filiale is a part of the INIST group. In the INIST group we had INIST and INIST Diffusion. INIST Diffusion was in charge of commercialization. There were thirty or so employees. INIST had several directorates and one department of research. There was a directorate of production, development, external relations, administration and finance, and this filiale.
====INIST Diffusion====
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was commercialization held at arm’s length?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. It was a part of the company but was separate. INIST Diffusion was in charge of the commercialization and promotion of the product. It had the exclusivity of promotion and commercialization of all the INIST products. They say it’s an interface to adapt the offer to the demand. They were also able to collect the money that we were not able to.
:We were only able to spend money. It was a big budget, four hundred million francs a year. We had a big budget, but we had a controller. You can’t spend twenty cents without the controller’s approval about the way it was spent. The filiale was created in October, 1988.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: That was very close to the beginning.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|25}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: On 15 March 1987, the institute was officially created. But the conception of it started earlier. In September, with the director general of CNRS, we decided to start. We started recruiting the personnel of INIST in December. In November 1989, we started the construction of the buildings. It was very fast construction. In November and December, wetransferred the collections. In January 1990, INIST Diffusion started to function officially. In fact, in January, 1990, we had started to charge the users through INIST Diffusion. Before, it was charged by us but the money was collected by CNRS.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: But, of course, now, those services are entirely digital. They’re online, or on CD-ROMs. Are they no longer printed?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Printing was abandoned in 1992, I think it was.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, what were the reasons for deciding to no longer print? You mentioned escalating costs before.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Also we wanted to move from a publication center to a new center, and we couldn’t do everything. We were selling CD-ROMs, profiles, and bibliographic searches.
We sold other formats because not all our users were able to use CD-ROMs at that time. CD-
ROM use really started in the 1990s.
{{Article body/End}}
===Changes in technology===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were ahead of your time in providing this sort of digital service.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. We were the first in Europe. It was very difficult to choose the technology. In fact, we didn’t choose very good technology because we started with big digital discs. This has not proved to be the best choice.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I assume, though, that there’s a constant transfer of the technology.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We change the technology all the time. The goal of Delacôte was to have a new technology center.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What was the research department doing?

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|26}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They did a lot of bibliometry, automatic indexing, statistics, and infométrie (infometry). It was very important for CNRS to know who was doing what. Of course, this analysis was a preliminary study for the assisted indexing system that they were working on.
:We were working on a linguistic approach with a company called ALETH— segmentation techniques, optical character recognition—a preliminary study of an assisted indexing system evaluation and prospects. They were really a research department. Sometimes,
we were a little bit unhappy that they were too research-oriented and not concentrating enough in applications. Then we remembered that we were CNRS, and we couldn’t kill research. [laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There was a development department.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were cognitive sciences. They were studying a lot of things that could help our staff to work better and do some research in cooperation with research institutes from Nancy that worked in linguistics and computers.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was some of what they were doing incorporated into the work of INIST?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Automatic indexing, for example. Pieces of it were incorporated into the computer system. The computer system was quite sophisticated. We had fifty people working on it.
At one time, the department of development was one guy. [laughter] His goal was to
steer the center to where the users wanted it. Honestly, he didn’t work very well. A few things
came from it as far as knowing what the researchers wanted. But, you know, the researchers—
they don’t even know what they want. You just ask them, “Do you want that?” They say, “Oh,
yes, maybe.” Then you come and say, “This is what you asked for.” “Oh, no, that is not what I
asked for.” “And what do you want?” Then, “I’m not sure.”
But, still, the development guy was not completely responsible. In fact, now, these users
follow up, et cetera, is done in the marketing department.
Now, there is only one organization. INIST Diffusion is no longer a filiale . There is
only one organization that has obtained, step by step, the right to commercialize. The problem
was obtaining approval from the Ministry of Finance.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, just by way of general assessment as to where INIST has come from, where
do you see it going? With this approach to commercialization, clearly there has to be, now,
some notion of competitiveness with a whole range of other services.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|27}}
 
Because you’re in effect competing for the money of clients who have other options being offered by a whole slew of
database providers in Europe, in the States, elsewhere. I’m curious as to where INIST fits.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I have to say that, now, with the new director, who is a former administrator of
one of the regions, they are coming back to CNRS users. For example, the international
relations are much less international relations than they were when I was there. They are selling
the services—but they are more centered to French researchers. We never had the idea of
competing with other services.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The minute you speak of commercialization, it implies a marketplace in which
there is competition.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, but the goal was to be able to collect the money we were gaining—to
collect and to spend for ourselves. It was not so much to collect more and more money.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Not profit making.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: No. Our problem was that we were doing better services; we were selling more.
All this money was going in a hole without end, which was called the Ministry of Finance. We
never saw the results of our work. What we wanted—and what the CNRS has accepted—is, if
we have more money, we can do better. We didn’t want to ask for more money, but we did
want to do more services. That was the first goal. It was not so much to try to compete with
Chemical Abstracts or whoever else. That was not the goal.
Don’t forget, it’s a public administration. There were philosophical problems with the
British Library at the time. We sometimes thought that they were doing things that were not
very polite or not very good.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yes, they were very commercially-oriented.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But it was never at a personal level. We always had excellent relations with
people like Brian Lang, David Russon, and Maurice Line. We tried even to have an agreement
so that we abandoned the periodicals from which we sold very few articles. But, of course,
competition was always in the air.
Being a public administration, our goal was not to compete with other public
administrations. We wanted to be recognized at the European level as a partner. We succeeded
in doing that. CDST was never recognized apart from Bulletin Signalétique. INIST was
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|28}}
 

recognized, not only here, but we had visitors from China, Japan, and all over Europe. Big
groups of people were coming to see what we were doing. But we never tried to say we were
better than the English, Germans, or whoever.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The British Library thing interested me because there’s no question that when the
National Lending Library for Science and Technology was set up, they developed a very
commercial outlook. They were interested in making money.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, I have visited them.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: And they do make millions of pounds. I was interested that you were saying that
during the move to Nancy, there were four thousand copies of articles being copied a day at that
time. Which is, again, the sort of thing that the British Library was, you know, seeing as—
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were doing maybe ten thousand requests a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: —I wondered to what extent the development of their service actually impinged
on yours.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It didn’t. They were too expensive.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yours was oriented mostly towards people in France?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: For people in France and all over the world. Because we had periodicals that
some people didn’t have. I don’t know where the users were coming from. Also, the British
Library, at that time, was always very complicated with their coupons, et cetera. But, in fact, we
established the same thing. Now, it’s easier with credit cards but, at one time, we couldn’t
accommodate credit cards.
For two years almost, the center never stopped working. That was a burden. That was
very difficult. I worked thirteen or fourteen hours a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I can believe it.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|29}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But we were lucky. We were like pioneers. I had a group of people that didn’t
count their time. It was really a good group of people. My deputy, in fact, was the latest
director of CDSH. She became the chief of INIST human sciences. It worked very well
because we had been working together for twenty-five years. She was a good friend of mine,
and she played the game.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The section concerned with the human sciences stayed in Paris?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It stayed a little bit longer, and then they moved. Yes.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So they’re all in Nancy now?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Recruiting staff, continuing to work, and installing ourselves in a building
of a new conception from Jean Nouvel is not so easy. Jean Nouvel is an architect with ideas—
you have seen his futuristic buildings. It is not so easy to work in a futurist building. Have you
seen the corridors in the library?
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Oh, yes. It looks fascinating, in terms of design, but I wonder what it would be
like to work in it. What was in this area below?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: That was a computer service.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 4]
[END OF INTERVIEW]
{{Article body/End}}

[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Carrière à l'INIST]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Employment at INIST

2021-04-26T10:06:50Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* Changes in technology */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Employment at INIST==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|20}}
[BREAK IN RECORDING]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I said, “All right, after the weekend, I will write you.” Then he said, “Oh, you know, you have to do it.” I said, “Yes, sure. I’m interested.” He said, “Because, you know, don’t forget, you are in secondment—” I said, “Is that a way of threatening me? If I won’t be good, they won’t continue my secondment?” And I told him, “Oh, please, don’t chantage (blackmail) me because I can stay with the UN as long as I want.” And, of course, in CNRS, you have to stay until sixty-five. “I can stay until sixty-two, anyway, and you can stay two years more. You know, considering the money I’m getting here, I will have more money staying three years less in CNRS than two years more.” [laughter]
{{Article body/End}}
===Transition from the United Nations===
{{Article body/Begin}}

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: He said, “No, that was not what I was trying to do.” I said, “All right.” Then he left. I showed him a little bit of what we were doing. After the weekend, I wrote thirty-two pages of comments on this thing. There were a lot of crazy things I could not understand. And I said that. Then I never heard about anything. Because there were problems in Geneva, the Comité Diplomatique said they didn’t want to pay any more money for the library because there were big problems there. The librarian said, “Over my dead body. There will be no computers in the library.” Finally, they negotiated that I could go to Geneva. I had almost finished my automation in New York, and I moved to Geneva. I was happy to move back to Geneva because my kids were in France. I was a little bit lonely. I went back to Geneva and began working. You cannot believe what Geneva was like. There were rooms full of books. If you opened the door, you just had to run very fast because, otherwise, everything was going to fall on you. [laughter] It was terrible. I started buying computers, doing automation, putting things in order in Geneva.

:One day, two years later, I had a call. “I’m the secretary of the director of CRNS. He wants you to come tomorrow to see him.” I said, “Look, lady, [laughter] I am not working for you. The UN is paying me, and I just cannot. Again, it is during the General Assembly.” [laughter] She said, “Yes. So, when can you come?” I said, “I can come on Saturday.” Then I went on Saturday. It was a big room with the director of CNRS, Goéry Delacôte, the director of information, and the chief of personnel of CNRS. They said, “We were very happy about the comments you did,” et cetera. It happened in forty-five minutes. I was thinking, “They didn’t ask me to come from Geneva to listen to how they were happy about the report that I did.”
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|21}}
 
:They said, “Do you know why we have called you?” I said, “No, I have no idea.” “Well, because we want you to take over the INIST.”

:Then, because I was so shocked, I asked a stupid question. I said, “But, I work for the UN and I have no intention of leaving. I have just renewed my contract for the next two years. What happened to Mr. Jakobiac?” He was supposed to take over INIST. I heard, during the two years, that this guy was in charge of INIST.

:As soon as I asked the question, I knew that it was stupid because then they said, “Non, cela n’a pas marché''; it didn’t work,” et cetera. I was a little bit surprised. They said, “We want you to start immediately.” I said, “Are you joking? I just, six months ago, came from New York. I cannot just leave the UN.” They said, “We are going to get someone to replace you.”

:I said, “Look, there was a story in New York. The director of personnel didn’t want me to go to Geneva. Then Geneva said, ‘We cannot do without you. It’s very important,’ et cetera. There was a battle for me to go to Geneva. The director of the Geneva office is not going to accept that I’m being replaced just like that.” They said, “Then, we will find two people.” [laughter] “All right.”
{{Article body/End}}

===Kofi Annan===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then I went to Geneva and talked to the director of the Geneva office—he was a Belgian man at the time. He said, “They are crazy. There is no way. Look, if you want to go back—” I said, “Look, this is my organization. They can force me to go back.” “They wouldn’t force you.” At the same time, the French said, “All right, we can force you.” But it would take two years—going to tribunal.

:Finally, I negotiated that I could do some work with the ''conseil de projet'' (project council) on Saturdays and my vacation days. Which meant, in 1987, I didn’t have any vacation days. I used all my vacation days so that I could find someone to replace me in Geneva and that to give them time for the hiring process. In fact, it was Mr. Kofi Annan, the chief of personnel, who is now the director general. I met him in the French embassy and we negotiated my replacement.
{{Article body/End}}

===Founding of INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then the INIST story started. I discovered that it was going to be very difficult because all the people said, “It’s impossible. It cannot be done.” I talked to some of the people. “You’re crazy to try to do it,” they said. I said, “It could be interesting to start something.” But,all the people said, “No, it’s not feasible. It’s impossible.” INIST started with a lot of difficulties. I moved to Nancy. I was one person with only a secretary and her husband to help me.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:What were all the difficulties that people were referring to?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The difficulties were that the CDST was not prepared to move. We had a library of twenty-seven thousand titles of periodicals on ten floors.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|22}}
 
:We had to move all that, but we could not stop working. We had four thousand requests for photocopies a day at that time. A day! How do you continue to do that? We had to build a building and figure out where to put the staff. Then the staff didn’t want to go. Altogether, thirty people from the whole CNRS went. We had to recruit about three or four hundred people—newcomers—train them, and put them somewhere. When we recruited them, there was nowhere to sit; we had to rent space. We were even in a small castle from the eighteenth century. In this castle alone with a secretary. [laughter] I had to rent in a building the rooms to put the people I was recruiting in. All these people had to be recruited through a National Caucus. It was competitions, because it’s administration. It was a post of a fonctionnaire (civil servant).

:Recruitment was not so easy. I needed ten people as a jury. We had a written exam and then an oral one. We were recruiting twenty-five people at one time. I worked in five places: CDST, rue Boyer, where the remaining staff was; Boulevard Raspail, where CDSH was, the human sciences; and Château du Montet, where I was officially located. But, for political reasons, they wanted me to go there. I was an important person there. I had taken some other things, but we have not time to go through—from the press.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 3]
{{Article body/End}}

===Moving to Nancy, France. ===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Phillips Company moved to the suburbs of Nancy, and they left a big place that we started to use for newcomers. Then, I was at Château du Montet; some people were in Vendoeuvre, in a building where we just rented some rooms; and others were in two places in Paris. In those days, my train left at 6:15 in the morning. Fortunately, they gave me a driver. The driver brought me to the station at six o’clock; at 6:15, I got the train. I arrived in Paris at 9:00 am. I had a driver taking me, and the driver was carrying me to the two centers, from center to center, mostly to CDST because of where we had the library. And at 6:15 pm, I was taking the train back. I arrived at about 10:30 pm to eleven o’clock three times a week.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Sounds appalling.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The rest of the time, I was in Nancy. I did that for three years. [laughter] I wasfortunate to have good health at that time. We started building the new building. I had tofollow the building project and, at the same time, continue to recruit, train, and movepeople.We moved the collections in six weeks, and we neverstopped serving the users. We managedthis because we had prepared the places of the collections by computer. During the day, we puteverythingin a truck andduring the nightwe moved.Then thenext day, the collections wereput in placeand we’d start all over again. We used two trucks a day.

:There were machines left in CDST, and we bought new machines for INIST. As soon as the orders came, we filled them from INIST or CDST. They said it would be impossible. When I told Caroline Wiegandt-Sakoun, a librarian, she thought I was crazy.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|23}}
 
:Not on a big collection; we have changed the places of collection in a library from Vienna. All the collection on drugs came to us, and we moved that from Vienna to Geneva.
{{Article body/End}}
===Recruitment of staff===
{{Article body/Begin}}
:The people worked very hard. Even the people in CDST who were not going to stay did a marvelous job. We hired new people.
:The first people we hired were the ''magasiniers'' (shopkeepers) to put things in place. Every night, there was a librarian staying with them to see that there were no particular questions about where to put things.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Were you still doing the work on developing the database at this time?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:: Yes. The new periodicals were arriving at Nancy, which meant the new people were working on them. The CDST was doing the backlog because some of the people were leaving, and some others didn’t want to work anymore because they were leaving—[gunshot]—midi (noon).
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There’s a gunshot at noon?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, every day at 12:00 pm. So that you can check your watch.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The building site started when?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It started in November, 1987.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: When you were recruiting the staff to set the service up—you had over three hundred people.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. More. We had three hundred fifty, plus the staff to do abstracts from home. Yes, some of the people were doing abstracts at home. Then we started doing them online from home also.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What proportion of the abstracts was done outside by this piecework process? It was a piecework process, really, wasn’t it?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Maybe half of the abstracts. But much less of the indexing was done that way.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|24}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The indexing was done in-house, essentially.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes.
{{Article body/End}}

===Differences between Centre de Documentation Scientifique et Technique [CDST] and INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Let’s talk a little about the changing philosophy and the approach represented in the INIST as opposed to the earlier CDST. Because so few of the staff actually transferred, it was actually a new organization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. This was what we wanted. The most important change was that commercialization became an important part. We tried—and it is very difficult in an organization that is a public administration—to have a commercial department. We were not supposed to sell things. But we obtained permission from the Ministry of Finance to create a filiale (subsidiary company), the commercialization section.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: This is like a company that’s set up apart?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, a filiale is a part of the INIST group. In the INIST group we had INIST and INIST Diffusion. INIST Diffusion was in charge of commercialization. There were thirty or so employees. INIST had several directorates and one department of research. There was a directorate of production, development, external relations, administration and finance, and this filiale.
====INIST Diffusion====
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was commercialization held at arm’s length?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. It was a part of the company but was separate. INIST Diffusion was in charge of the commercialization and promotion of the product. It had the exclusivity of promotion and commercialization of all the INIST products. They say it’s an interface to adapt the offer to the demand. They were also able to collect the money that we were not able to.
:We were only able to spend money. It was a big budget, four hundred million francs a year. We had a big budget, but we had a controller. You can’t spend twenty cents without the controller’s approval about the way it was spent. The filiale was created in October, 1988.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: That was very close to the beginning.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|25}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: On 15 March 1987, the institute was officially created. But the conception of it started earlier. In September, with the director general of CNRS, we decided to start. We started recruiting the personnel of INIST in December. In November 1989, we started the construction of the buildings. It was very fast construction. In November and December, wetransferred the collections. In January 1990, INIST Diffusion started to function officially. In fact, in January, 1990, we had started to charge the users through INIST Diffusion. Before, it was charged by us but the money was collected by CNRS.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: But, of course, now, those services are entirely digital. They’re online, or on CD-ROMs. Are they no longer printed?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Printing was abandoned in 1992, I think it was.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, what were the reasons for deciding to no longer print? You mentioned escalating costs before.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Also we wanted to move from a publication center to a new center, and we couldn’t do everything. We were selling CD-ROMs, profiles, and bibliographic searches.
We sold other formats because not all our users were able to use CD-ROMs at that time. CD-
ROM use really started in the 1990s.
{{Article body/End}}
===Changes in technology===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were ahead of your time in providing this sort of digital service.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. We were the first in Europe. It was very difficult to choose the technology. In fact, we didn’t choose very good technology because we started with big digital discs. This has not proved to be the best choice.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I assume, though, that there’s a constant transfer of the technology.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We change the technology all the time. The goal of Delacôte was to have a new technology center.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What was the research department doing?

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|26}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They did a lot of bibliometry, automatic indexing, statistics, and infométrie (infometry). It was very important for CNRS to know who was doing what. Of course, this analysis was a preliminary study for the assisted indexing system that they were working on.
;We were working on a linguistic approach with a company called ALETH— segmentation techniques, optical character recognition—a preliminary study of an assisted indexing system evaluation and prospects. They were really a research department. Sometimes,
we were a little bit unhappy that they were too research-oriented and not concentrating enough in applications. Then we remembered that we were CNRS, and we couldn’t kill research. [laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There was a development department.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were cognitive sciences. They were studying a lot of things that could help our staff to work better and do some research in cooperation with research institutes from Nancy that worked in linguistics and computers.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was some of what they were doing incorporated into the work of INIST?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Automatic indexing, for example. Pieces of it were incorporated into the computer system. The computer system was quite sophisticated. We had fifty people working on it.
At one time, the department of development was one guy. [laughter] His goal was to
steer the center to where the users wanted it. Honestly, he didn’t work very well. A few things
came from it as far as knowing what the researchers wanted. But, you know, the researchers—
they don’t even know what they want. You just ask them, “Do you want that?” They say, “Oh,
yes, maybe.” Then you come and say, “This is what you asked for.” “Oh, no, that is not what I
asked for.” “And what do you want?” Then, “I’m not sure.”
But, still, the development guy was not completely responsible. In fact, now, these users
follow up, et cetera, is done in the marketing department.
Now, there is only one organization. INIST Diffusion is no longer a filiale . There is
only one organization that has obtained, step by step, the right to commercialize. The problem
was obtaining approval from the Ministry of Finance.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, just by way of general assessment as to where INIST has come from, where
do you see it going? With this approach to commercialization, clearly there has to be, now,
some notion of competitiveness with a whole range of other services.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|27}}
 
Because you’re in effect competing for the money of clients who have other options being offered by a whole slew of
database providers in Europe, in the States, elsewhere. I’m curious as to where INIST fits.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I have to say that, now, with the new director, who is a former administrator of
one of the regions, they are coming back to CNRS users. For example, the international
relations are much less international relations than they were when I was there. They are selling
the services—but they are more centered to French researchers. We never had the idea of
competing with other services.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The minute you speak of commercialization, it implies a marketplace in which
there is competition.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, but the goal was to be able to collect the money we were gaining—to
collect and to spend for ourselves. It was not so much to collect more and more money.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Not profit making.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: No. Our problem was that we were doing better services; we were selling more.
All this money was going in a hole without end, which was called the Ministry of Finance. We
never saw the results of our work. What we wanted—and what the CNRS has accepted—is, if
we have more money, we can do better. We didn’t want to ask for more money, but we did
want to do more services. That was the first goal. It was not so much to try to compete with
Chemical Abstracts or whoever else. That was not the goal.
Don’t forget, it’s a public administration. There were philosophical problems with the
British Library at the time. We sometimes thought that they were doing things that were not
very polite or not very good.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yes, they were very commercially-oriented.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But it was never at a personal level. We always had excellent relations with
people like Brian Lang, David Russon, and Maurice Line. We tried even to have an agreement
so that we abandoned the periodicals from which we sold very few articles. But, of course,
competition was always in the air.
Being a public administration, our goal was not to compete with other public
administrations. We wanted to be recognized at the European level as a partner. We succeeded
in doing that. CDST was never recognized apart from Bulletin Signalétique. INIST was
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|28}}
 

recognized, not only here, but we had visitors from China, Japan, and all over Europe. Big
groups of people were coming to see what we were doing. But we never tried to say we were
better than the English, Germans, or whoever.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The British Library thing interested me because there’s no question that when the
National Lending Library for Science and Technology was set up, they developed a very
commercial outlook. They were interested in making money.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, I have visited them.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: And they do make millions of pounds. I was interested that you were saying that
during the move to Nancy, there were four thousand copies of articles being copied a day at that
time. Which is, again, the sort of thing that the British Library was, you know, seeing as—
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were doing maybe ten thousand requests a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: —I wondered to what extent the development of their service actually impinged
on yours.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It didn’t. They were too expensive.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yours was oriented mostly towards people in France?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: For people in France and all over the world. Because we had periodicals that
some people didn’t have. I don’t know where the users were coming from. Also, the British
Library, at that time, was always very complicated with their coupons, et cetera. But, in fact, we
established the same thing. Now, it’s easier with credit cards but, at one time, we couldn’t
accommodate credit cards.
For two years almost, the center never stopped working. That was a burden. That was
very difficult. I worked thirteen or fourteen hours a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I can believe it.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|29}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But we were lucky. We were like pioneers. I had a group of people that didn’t
count their time. It was really a good group of people. My deputy, in fact, was the latest
director of CDSH. She became the chief of INIST human sciences. It worked very well
because we had been working together for twenty-five years. She was a good friend of mine,
and she played the game.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The section concerned with the human sciences stayed in Paris?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It stayed a little bit longer, and then they moved. Yes.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So they’re all in Nancy now?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Recruiting staff, continuing to work, and installing ourselves in a building
of a new conception from Jean Nouvel is not so easy. Jean Nouvel is an architect with ideas—
you have seen his futuristic buildings. It is not so easy to work in a futurist building. Have you
seen the corridors in the library?
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Oh, yes. It looks fascinating, in terms of design, but I wonder what it would be
like to work in it. What was in this area below?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: That was a computer service.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 4]
[END OF INTERVIEW]
{{Article body/End}}

[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Carrière à l'INIST]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Employment at INIST

2021-04-26T10:01:50Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* Changes in technology */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Employment at INIST==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|20}}
[BREAK IN RECORDING]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I said, “All right, after the weekend, I will write you.” Then he said, “Oh, you know, you have to do it.” I said, “Yes, sure. I’m interested.” He said, “Because, you know, don’t forget, you are in secondment—” I said, “Is that a way of threatening me? If I won’t be good, they won’t continue my secondment?” And I told him, “Oh, please, don’t chantage (blackmail) me because I can stay with the UN as long as I want.” And, of course, in CNRS, you have to stay until sixty-five. “I can stay until sixty-two, anyway, and you can stay two years more. You know, considering the money I’m getting here, I will have more money staying three years less in CNRS than two years more.” [laughter]
{{Article body/End}}
===Transition from the United Nations===
{{Article body/Begin}}

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: He said, “No, that was not what I was trying to do.” I said, “All right.” Then he left. I showed him a little bit of what we were doing. After the weekend, I wrote thirty-two pages of comments on this thing. There were a lot of crazy things I could not understand. And I said that. Then I never heard about anything. Because there were problems in Geneva, the Comité Diplomatique said they didn’t want to pay any more money for the library because there were big problems there. The librarian said, “Over my dead body. There will be no computers in the library.” Finally, they negotiated that I could go to Geneva. I had almost finished my automation in New York, and I moved to Geneva. I was happy to move back to Geneva because my kids were in France. I was a little bit lonely. I went back to Geneva and began working. You cannot believe what Geneva was like. There were rooms full of books. If you opened the door, you just had to run very fast because, otherwise, everything was going to fall on you. [laughter] It was terrible. I started buying computers, doing automation, putting things in order in Geneva.

:One day, two years later, I had a call. “I’m the secretary of the director of CRNS. He wants you to come tomorrow to see him.” I said, “Look, lady, [laughter] I am not working for you. The UN is paying me, and I just cannot. Again, it is during the General Assembly.” [laughter] She said, “Yes. So, when can you come?” I said, “I can come on Saturday.” Then I went on Saturday. It was a big room with the director of CNRS, Goéry Delacôte, the director of information, and the chief of personnel of CNRS. They said, “We were very happy about the comments you did,” et cetera. It happened in forty-five minutes. I was thinking, “They didn’t ask me to come from Geneva to listen to how they were happy about the report that I did.”
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|21}}
 
:They said, “Do you know why we have called you?” I said, “No, I have no idea.” “Well, because we want you to take over the INIST.”

:Then, because I was so shocked, I asked a stupid question. I said, “But, I work for the UN and I have no intention of leaving. I have just renewed my contract for the next two years. What happened to Mr. Jakobiac?” He was supposed to take over INIST. I heard, during the two years, that this guy was in charge of INIST.

:As soon as I asked the question, I knew that it was stupid because then they said, “Non, cela n’a pas marché''; it didn’t work,” et cetera. I was a little bit surprised. They said, “We want you to start immediately.” I said, “Are you joking? I just, six months ago, came from New York. I cannot just leave the UN.” They said, “We are going to get someone to replace you.”

:I said, “Look, there was a story in New York. The director of personnel didn’t want me to go to Geneva. Then Geneva said, ‘We cannot do without you. It’s very important,’ et cetera. There was a battle for me to go to Geneva. The director of the Geneva office is not going to accept that I’m being replaced just like that.” They said, “Then, we will find two people.” [laughter] “All right.”
{{Article body/End}}

===Kofi Annan===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then I went to Geneva and talked to the director of the Geneva office—he was a Belgian man at the time. He said, “They are crazy. There is no way. Look, if you want to go back—” I said, “Look, this is my organization. They can force me to go back.” “They wouldn’t force you.” At the same time, the French said, “All right, we can force you.” But it would take two years—going to tribunal.

:Finally, I negotiated that I could do some work with the ''conseil de projet'' (project council) on Saturdays and my vacation days. Which meant, in 1987, I didn’t have any vacation days. I used all my vacation days so that I could find someone to replace me in Geneva and that to give them time for the hiring process. In fact, it was Mr. Kofi Annan, the chief of personnel, who is now the director general. I met him in the French embassy and we negotiated my replacement.
{{Article body/End}}

===Founding of INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then the INIST story started. I discovered that it was going to be very difficult because all the people said, “It’s impossible. It cannot be done.” I talked to some of the people. “You’re crazy to try to do it,” they said. I said, “It could be interesting to start something.” But,all the people said, “No, it’s not feasible. It’s impossible.” INIST started with a lot of difficulties. I moved to Nancy. I was one person with only a secretary and her husband to help me.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:What were all the difficulties that people were referring to?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The difficulties were that the CDST was not prepared to move. We had a library of twenty-seven thousand titles of periodicals on ten floors.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|22}}
 
:We had to move all that, but we could not stop working. We had four thousand requests for photocopies a day at that time. A day! How do you continue to do that? We had to build a building and figure out where to put the staff. Then the staff didn’t want to go. Altogether, thirty people from the whole CNRS went. We had to recruit about three or four hundred people—newcomers—train them, and put them somewhere. When we recruited them, there was nowhere to sit; we had to rent space. We were even in a small castle from the eighteenth century. In this castle alone with a secretary. [laughter] I had to rent in a building the rooms to put the people I was recruiting in. All these people had to be recruited through a National Caucus. It was competitions, because it’s administration. It was a post of a fonctionnaire (civil servant).

:Recruitment was not so easy. I needed ten people as a jury. We had a written exam and then an oral one. We were recruiting twenty-five people at one time. I worked in five places: CDST, rue Boyer, where the remaining staff was; Boulevard Raspail, where CDSH was, the human sciences; and Château du Montet, where I was officially located. But, for political reasons, they wanted me to go there. I was an important person there. I had taken some other things, but we have not time to go through—from the press.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 3]
{{Article body/End}}

===Moving to Nancy, France. ===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Phillips Company moved to the suburbs of Nancy, and they left a big place that we started to use for newcomers. Then, I was at Château du Montet; some people were in Vendoeuvre, in a building where we just rented some rooms; and others were in two places in Paris. In those days, my train left at 6:15 in the morning. Fortunately, they gave me a driver. The driver brought me to the station at six o’clock; at 6:15, I got the train. I arrived in Paris at 9:00 am. I had a driver taking me, and the driver was carrying me to the two centers, from center to center, mostly to CDST because of where we had the library. And at 6:15 pm, I was taking the train back. I arrived at about 10:30 pm to eleven o’clock three times a week.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Sounds appalling.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The rest of the time, I was in Nancy. I did that for three years. [laughter] I wasfortunate to have good health at that time. We started building the new building. I had tofollow the building project and, at the same time, continue to recruit, train, and movepeople.We moved the collections in six weeks, and we neverstopped serving the users. We managedthis because we had prepared the places of the collections by computer. During the day, we puteverythingin a truck andduring the nightwe moved.Then thenext day, the collections wereput in placeand we’d start all over again. We used two trucks a day.

:There were machines left in CDST, and we bought new machines for INIST. As soon as the orders came, we filled them from INIST or CDST. They said it would be impossible. When I told Caroline Wiegandt-Sakoun, a librarian, she thought I was crazy.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|23}}
 
:Not on a big collection; we have changed the places of collection in a library from Vienna. All the collection on drugs came to us, and we moved that from Vienna to Geneva.
{{Article body/End}}
===Recruitment of staff===
{{Article body/Begin}}
:The people worked very hard. Even the people in CDST who were not going to stay did a marvelous job. We hired new people.
:The first people we hired were the ''magasiniers'' (shopkeepers) to put things in place. Every night, there was a librarian staying with them to see that there were no particular questions about where to put things.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Were you still doing the work on developing the database at this time?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:: Yes. The new periodicals were arriving at Nancy, which meant the new people were working on them. The CDST was doing the backlog because some of the people were leaving, and some others didn’t want to work anymore because they were leaving—[gunshot]—midi (noon).
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There’s a gunshot at noon?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, every day at 12:00 pm. So that you can check your watch.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The building site started when?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It started in November, 1987.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: When you were recruiting the staff to set the service up—you had over three hundred people.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. More. We had three hundred fifty, plus the staff to do abstracts from home. Yes, some of the people were doing abstracts at home. Then we started doing them online from home also.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What proportion of the abstracts was done outside by this piecework process? It was a piecework process, really, wasn’t it?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Maybe half of the abstracts. But much less of the indexing was done that way.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|24}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The indexing was done in-house, essentially.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes.
{{Article body/End}}

===Differences between Centre de Documentation Scientifique et Technique [CDST] and INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Let’s talk a little about the changing philosophy and the approach represented in the INIST as opposed to the earlier CDST. Because so few of the staff actually transferred, it was actually a new organization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. This was what we wanted. The most important change was that commercialization became an important part. We tried—and it is very difficult in an organization that is a public administration—to have a commercial department. We were not supposed to sell things. But we obtained permission from the Ministry of Finance to create a filiale (subsidiary company), the commercialization section.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: This is like a company that’s set up apart?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, a filiale is a part of the INIST group. In the INIST group we had INIST and INIST Diffusion. INIST Diffusion was in charge of commercialization. There were thirty or so employees. INIST had several directorates and one department of research. There was a directorate of production, development, external relations, administration and finance, and this filiale.
====INIST Diffusion====
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was commercialization held at arm’s length?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. It was a part of the company but was separate. INIST Diffusion was in charge of the commercialization and promotion of the product. It had the exclusivity of promotion and commercialization of all the INIST products. They say it’s an interface to adapt the offer to the demand. They were also able to collect the money that we were not able to.
:We were only able to spend money. It was a big budget, four hundred million francs a year. We had a big budget, but we had a controller. You can’t spend twenty cents without the controller’s approval about the way it was spent. The filiale was created in October, 1988.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: That was very close to the beginning.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|25}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: On 15 March 1987, the institute was officially created. But the conception of it started earlier. In September, with the director general of CNRS, we decided to start. We started recruiting the personnel of INIST in December. In November 1989, we started the construction of the buildings. It was very fast construction. In November and December, wetransferred the collections. In January 1990, INIST Diffusion started to function officially. In fact, in January, 1990, we had started to charge the users through INIST Diffusion. Before, it was charged by us but the money was collected by CNRS.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: But, of course, now, those services are entirely digital. They’re online, or on CD-ROMs. Are they no longer printed?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Printing was abandoned in 1992, I think it was.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, what were the reasons for deciding to no longer print? You mentioned escalating costs before.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Also we wanted to move from a publication center to a new center, and we couldn’t do everything. We were selling CD-ROMs, profiles, and bibliographic searches.
We sold other formats because not all our users were able to use CD-ROMs at that time. CD-
ROM use really started in the 1990s.
{{Article body/End}}
===Changes in technology===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were ahead of your time in providing this sort of digital service.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. We were the first in Europe. It was very difficult to choose the
technology. In fact, we didn’t choose very good technology because we started with big digital
discs. This has not proved to be the best choice.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I assume, though, that there’s a constant transfer of the technology.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We change the technology all the time. The goal of Delacôte was to have a new
technology center.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What was the research department doing?

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|26}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They did a lot of bibliometry, automatic indexing, statistics, and infométrie
(infometry). It was very important for CNRS to know who was doing what. Of course, this
analysis was a preliminary study for the assisted indexing system that they were working on.
We were working on a linguistic approach with a company called ALETH—
segmentation techniques, optical character recognition—a preliminary study of an assisted
indexing system evaluation and prospects. They were really a research department. Sometimes,
we were a little bit unhappy that they were too research-oriented and not concentrating enough
in applications. Then we remembered that we were CNRS, and we couldn’t kill research.
[laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There was a development department.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were cognitive sciences. They were studying a lot of things that could
help our staff to work better and do some research in cooperation with research institutes from
Nancy that worked in linguistics and computers.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was some of what they were doing incorporated into the work of INIST?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Automatic indexing, for example. Pieces of it were incorporated into the
computer system. The computer system was quite sophisticated. We had fifty people working on it.
At one time, the department of development was one guy. [laughter] His goal was to
steer the center to where the users wanted it. Honestly, he didn’t work very well. A few things
came from it as far as knowing what the researchers wanted. But, you know, the researchers—
they don’t even know what they want. You just ask them, “Do you want that?” They say, “Oh,
yes, maybe.” Then you come and say, “This is what you asked for.” “Oh, no, that is not what I
asked for.” “And what do you want?” Then, “I’m not sure.”
But, still, the development guy was not completely responsible. In fact, now, these users
follow up, et cetera, is done in the marketing department.
Now, there is only one organization. INIST Diffusion is no longer a filiale . There is
only one organization that has obtained, step by step, the right to commercialize. The problem
was obtaining approval from the Ministry of Finance.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, just by way of general assessment as to where INIST has come from, where
do you see it going? With this approach to commercialization, clearly there has to be, now,
some notion of competitiveness with a whole range of other services.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|27}}
 
Because you’re in effect competing for the money of clients who have other options being offered by a whole slew of
database providers in Europe, in the States, elsewhere. I’m curious as to where INIST fits.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I have to say that, now, with the new director, who is a former administrator of
one of the regions, they are coming back to CNRS users. For example, the international
relations are much less international relations than they were when I was there. They are selling
the services—but they are more centered to French researchers. We never had the idea of
competing with other services.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The minute you speak of commercialization, it implies a marketplace in which
there is competition.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, but the goal was to be able to collect the money we were gaining—to
collect and to spend for ourselves. It was not so much to collect more and more money.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Not profit making.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: No. Our problem was that we were doing better services; we were selling more.
All this money was going in a hole without end, which was called the Ministry of Finance. We
never saw the results of our work. What we wanted—and what the CNRS has accepted—is, if
we have more money, we can do better. We didn’t want to ask for more money, but we did
want to do more services. That was the first goal. It was not so much to try to compete with
Chemical Abstracts or whoever else. That was not the goal.
Don’t forget, it’s a public administration. There were philosophical problems with the
British Library at the time. We sometimes thought that they were doing things that were not
very polite or not very good.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yes, they were very commercially-oriented.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But it was never at a personal level. We always had excellent relations with
people like Brian Lang, David Russon, and Maurice Line. We tried even to have an agreement
so that we abandoned the periodicals from which we sold very few articles. But, of course,
competition was always in the air.
Being a public administration, our goal was not to compete with other public
administrations. We wanted to be recognized at the European level as a partner. We succeeded
in doing that. CDST was never recognized apart from Bulletin Signalétique. INIST was
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|28}}
 

recognized, not only here, but we had visitors from China, Japan, and all over Europe. Big
groups of people were coming to see what we were doing. But we never tried to say we were
better than the English, Germans, or whoever.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The British Library thing interested me because there’s no question that when the
National Lending Library for Science and Technology was set up, they developed a very
commercial outlook. They were interested in making money.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, I have visited them.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: And they do make millions of pounds. I was interested that you were saying that
during the move to Nancy, there were four thousand copies of articles being copied a day at that
time. Which is, again, the sort of thing that the British Library was, you know, seeing as—
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were doing maybe ten thousand requests a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: —I wondered to what extent the development of their service actually impinged
on yours.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It didn’t. They were too expensive.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yours was oriented mostly towards people in France?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: For people in France and all over the world. Because we had periodicals that
some people didn’t have. I don’t know where the users were coming from. Also, the British
Library, at that time, was always very complicated with their coupons, et cetera. But, in fact, we
established the same thing. Now, it’s easier with credit cards but, at one time, we couldn’t
accommodate credit cards.
For two years almost, the center never stopped working. That was a burden. That was
very difficult. I worked thirteen or fourteen hours a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I can believe it.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|29}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But we were lucky. We were like pioneers. I had a group of people that didn’t
count their time. It was really a good group of people. My deputy, in fact, was the latest
director of CDSH. She became the chief of INIST human sciences. It worked very well
because we had been working together for twenty-five years. She was a good friend of mine,
and she played the game.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The section concerned with the human sciences stayed in Paris?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It stayed a little bit longer, and then they moved. Yes.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So they’re all in Nancy now?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Recruiting staff, continuing to work, and installing ourselves in a building
of a new conception from Jean Nouvel is not so easy. Jean Nouvel is an architect with ideas—
you have seen his futuristic buildings. It is not so easy to work in a futurist building. Have you
seen the corridors in the library?
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Oh, yes. It looks fascinating, in terms of design, but I wonder what it would be
like to work in it. What was in this area below?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: That was a computer service.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 4]
[END OF INTERVIEW]
{{Article body/End}}

[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Carrière à l'INIST]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Employment at INIST

2021-04-26T10:01:03Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* INIST Diffusion */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Employment at INIST==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|20}}
[BREAK IN RECORDING]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I said, “All right, after the weekend, I will write you.” Then he said, “Oh, you know, you have to do it.” I said, “Yes, sure. I’m interested.” He said, “Because, you know, don’t forget, you are in secondment—” I said, “Is that a way of threatening me? If I won’t be good, they won’t continue my secondment?” And I told him, “Oh, please, don’t chantage (blackmail) me because I can stay with the UN as long as I want.” And, of course, in CNRS, you have to stay until sixty-five. “I can stay until sixty-two, anyway, and you can stay two years more. You know, considering the money I’m getting here, I will have more money staying three years less in CNRS than two years more.” [laughter]
{{Article body/End}}
===Transition from the United Nations===
{{Article body/Begin}}

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: He said, “No, that was not what I was trying to do.” I said, “All right.” Then he left. I showed him a little bit of what we were doing. After the weekend, I wrote thirty-two pages of comments on this thing. There were a lot of crazy things I could not understand. And I said that. Then I never heard about anything. Because there were problems in Geneva, the Comité Diplomatique said they didn’t want to pay any more money for the library because there were big problems there. The librarian said, “Over my dead body. There will be no computers in the library.” Finally, they negotiated that I could go to Geneva. I had almost finished my automation in New York, and I moved to Geneva. I was happy to move back to Geneva because my kids were in France. I was a little bit lonely. I went back to Geneva and began working. You cannot believe what Geneva was like. There were rooms full of books. If you opened the door, you just had to run very fast because, otherwise, everything was going to fall on you. [laughter] It was terrible. I started buying computers, doing automation, putting things in order in Geneva.

:One day, two years later, I had a call. “I’m the secretary of the director of CRNS. He wants you to come tomorrow to see him.” I said, “Look, lady, [laughter] I am not working for you. The UN is paying me, and I just cannot. Again, it is during the General Assembly.” [laughter] She said, “Yes. So, when can you come?” I said, “I can come on Saturday.” Then I went on Saturday. It was a big room with the director of CNRS, Goéry Delacôte, the director of information, and the chief of personnel of CNRS. They said, “We were very happy about the comments you did,” et cetera. It happened in forty-five minutes. I was thinking, “They didn’t ask me to come from Geneva to listen to how they were happy about the report that I did.”
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|21}}
 
:They said, “Do you know why we have called you?” I said, “No, I have no idea.” “Well, because we want you to take over the INIST.”

:Then, because I was so shocked, I asked a stupid question. I said, “But, I work for the UN and I have no intention of leaving. I have just renewed my contract for the next two years. What happened to Mr. Jakobiac?” He was supposed to take over INIST. I heard, during the two years, that this guy was in charge of INIST.

:As soon as I asked the question, I knew that it was stupid because then they said, “Non, cela n’a pas marché''; it didn’t work,” et cetera. I was a little bit surprised. They said, “We want you to start immediately.” I said, “Are you joking? I just, six months ago, came from New York. I cannot just leave the UN.” They said, “We are going to get someone to replace you.”

:I said, “Look, there was a story in New York. The director of personnel didn’t want me to go to Geneva. Then Geneva said, ‘We cannot do without you. It’s very important,’ et cetera. There was a battle for me to go to Geneva. The director of the Geneva office is not going to accept that I’m being replaced just like that.” They said, “Then, we will find two people.” [laughter] “All right.”
{{Article body/End}}

===Kofi Annan===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then I went to Geneva and talked to the director of the Geneva office—he was a Belgian man at the time. He said, “They are crazy. There is no way. Look, if you want to go back—” I said, “Look, this is my organization. They can force me to go back.” “They wouldn’t force you.” At the same time, the French said, “All right, we can force you.” But it would take two years—going to tribunal.

:Finally, I negotiated that I could do some work with the ''conseil de projet'' (project council) on Saturdays and my vacation days. Which meant, in 1987, I didn’t have any vacation days. I used all my vacation days so that I could find someone to replace me in Geneva and that to give them time for the hiring process. In fact, it was Mr. Kofi Annan, the chief of personnel, who is now the director general. I met him in the French embassy and we negotiated my replacement.
{{Article body/End}}

===Founding of INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then the INIST story started. I discovered that it was going to be very difficult because all the people said, “It’s impossible. It cannot be done.” I talked to some of the people. “You’re crazy to try to do it,” they said. I said, “It could be interesting to start something.” But,all the people said, “No, it’s not feasible. It’s impossible.” INIST started with a lot of difficulties. I moved to Nancy. I was one person with only a secretary and her husband to help me.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:What were all the difficulties that people were referring to?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The difficulties were that the CDST was not prepared to move. We had a library of twenty-seven thousand titles of periodicals on ten floors.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|22}}
 
:We had to move all that, but we could not stop working. We had four thousand requests for photocopies a day at that time. A day! How do you continue to do that? We had to build a building and figure out where to put the staff. Then the staff didn’t want to go. Altogether, thirty people from the whole CNRS went. We had to recruit about three or four hundred people—newcomers—train them, and put them somewhere. When we recruited them, there was nowhere to sit; we had to rent space. We were even in a small castle from the eighteenth century. In this castle alone with a secretary. [laughter] I had to rent in a building the rooms to put the people I was recruiting in. All these people had to be recruited through a National Caucus. It was competitions, because it’s administration. It was a post of a fonctionnaire (civil servant).

:Recruitment was not so easy. I needed ten people as a jury. We had a written exam and then an oral one. We were recruiting twenty-five people at one time. I worked in five places: CDST, rue Boyer, where the remaining staff was; Boulevard Raspail, where CDSH was, the human sciences; and Château du Montet, where I was officially located. But, for political reasons, they wanted me to go there. I was an important person there. I had taken some other things, but we have not time to go through—from the press.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 3]
{{Article body/End}}

===Moving to Nancy, France. ===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Phillips Company moved to the suburbs of Nancy, and they left a big place that we started to use for newcomers. Then, I was at Château du Montet; some people were in Vendoeuvre, in a building where we just rented some rooms; and others were in two places in Paris. In those days, my train left at 6:15 in the morning. Fortunately, they gave me a driver. The driver brought me to the station at six o’clock; at 6:15, I got the train. I arrived in Paris at 9:00 am. I had a driver taking me, and the driver was carrying me to the two centers, from center to center, mostly to CDST because of where we had the library. And at 6:15 pm, I was taking the train back. I arrived at about 10:30 pm to eleven o’clock three times a week.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Sounds appalling.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The rest of the time, I was in Nancy. I did that for three years. [laughter] I wasfortunate to have good health at that time. We started building the new building. I had tofollow the building project and, at the same time, continue to recruit, train, and movepeople.We moved the collections in six weeks, and we neverstopped serving the users. We managedthis because we had prepared the places of the collections by computer. During the day, we puteverythingin a truck andduring the nightwe moved.Then thenext day, the collections wereput in placeand we’d start all over again. We used two trucks a day.

:There were machines left in CDST, and we bought new machines for INIST. As soon as the orders came, we filled them from INIST or CDST. They said it would be impossible. When I told Caroline Wiegandt-Sakoun, a librarian, she thought I was crazy.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|23}}
 
:Not on a big collection; we have changed the places of collection in a library from Vienna. All the collection on drugs came to us, and we moved that from Vienna to Geneva.
{{Article body/End}}
===Recruitment of staff===
{{Article body/Begin}}
:The people worked very hard. Even the people in CDST who were not going to stay did a marvelous job. We hired new people.
:The first people we hired were the ''magasiniers'' (shopkeepers) to put things in place. Every night, there was a librarian staying with them to see that there were no particular questions about where to put things.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Were you still doing the work on developing the database at this time?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:: Yes. The new periodicals were arriving at Nancy, which meant the new people were working on them. The CDST was doing the backlog because some of the people were leaving, and some others didn’t want to work anymore because they were leaving—[gunshot]—midi (noon).
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There’s a gunshot at noon?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, every day at 12:00 pm. So that you can check your watch.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The building site started when?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It started in November, 1987.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: When you were recruiting the staff to set the service up—you had over three hundred people.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. More. We had three hundred fifty, plus the staff to do abstracts from home. Yes, some of the people were doing abstracts at home. Then we started doing them online from home also.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What proportion of the abstracts was done outside by this piecework process? It was a piecework process, really, wasn’t it?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Maybe half of the abstracts. But much less of the indexing was done that way.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|24}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The indexing was done in-house, essentially.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes.
{{Article body/End}}

===Differences between Centre de Documentation Scientifique et Technique [CDST] and INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Let’s talk a little about the changing philosophy and the approach represented in the INIST as opposed to the earlier CDST. Because so few of the staff actually transferred, it was actually a new organization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. This was what we wanted. The most important change was that commercialization became an important part. We tried—and it is very difficult in an organization that is a public administration—to have a commercial department. We were not supposed to sell things. But we obtained permission from the Ministry of Finance to create a filiale (subsidiary company), the commercialization section.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: This is like a company that’s set up apart?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, a filiale is a part of the INIST group. In the INIST group we had INIST and INIST Diffusion. INIST Diffusion was in charge of commercialization. There were thirty or so employees. INIST had several directorates and one department of research. There was a directorate of production, development, external relations, administration and finance, and this filiale.
====INIST Diffusion====
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was commercialization held at arm’s length?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. It was a part of the company but was separate. INIST Diffusion was in charge of the commercialization and promotion of the product. It had the exclusivity of promotion and commercialization of all the INIST products. They say it’s an interface to adapt the offer to the demand. They were also able to collect the money that we were not able to.
:We were only able to spend money. It was a big budget, four hundred million francs a year. We had a big budget, but we had a controller. You can’t spend twenty cents without the controller’s approval about the way it was spent. The filiale was created in October, 1988.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: That was very close to the beginning.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|25}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: On 15 March 1987, the institute was officially created. But the conception of it started earlier. In September, with the director general of CNRS, we decided to start. We started recruiting the personnel of INIST in December. In November 1989, we started the construction of the buildings. It was very fast construction. In November and December, wetransferred the collections. In January 1990, INIST Diffusion started to function officially. In fact, in January, 1990, we had started to charge the users through INIST Diffusion. Before, it was charged by us but the money was collected by CNRS.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: But, of course, now, those services are entirely digital. They’re online, or on CD-ROMs. Are they no longer printed?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Printing was abandoned in 1992, I think it was.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, what were the reasons for deciding to no longer print? You mentioned escalating costs before.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Also we wanted to move from a publication center to a new center, and we couldn’t do everything. We were selling CD-ROMs, profiles, and bibliographic searches.
We sold other formats because not all our users were able to use CD-ROMs at that time. CD-
ROM use really started in the 1990s.
===Changes in technology===
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were ahead of your time in providing this sort of digital service.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. We were the first in Europe. It was very difficult to choose the
technology. In fact, we didn’t choose very good technology because we started with big digital
discs. This has not proved to be the best choice.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I assume, though, that there’s a constant transfer of the technology.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We change the technology all the time. The goal of Delacôte was to have a new
technology center.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What was the research department doing?

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|26}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They did a lot of bibliometry, automatic indexing, statistics, and infométrie
(infometry). It was very important for CNRS to know who was doing what. Of course, this
analysis was a preliminary study for the assisted indexing system that they were working on.
We were working on a linguistic approach with a company called ALETH—
segmentation techniques, optical character recognition—a preliminary study of an assisted
indexing system evaluation and prospects. They were really a research department. Sometimes,
we were a little bit unhappy that they were too research-oriented and not concentrating enough
in applications. Then we remembered that we were CNRS, and we couldn’t kill research.
[laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There was a development department.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were cognitive sciences. They were studying a lot of things that could
help our staff to work better and do some research in cooperation with research institutes from
Nancy that worked in linguistics and computers.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was some of what they were doing incorporated into the work of INIST?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Automatic indexing, for example. Pieces of it were incorporated into the
computer system. The computer system was quite sophisticated. We had fifty people working on it.
At one time, the department of development was one guy. [laughter] His goal was to
steer the center to where the users wanted it. Honestly, he didn’t work very well. A few things
came from it as far as knowing what the researchers wanted. But, you know, the researchers—
they don’t even know what they want. You just ask them, “Do you want that?” They say, “Oh,
yes, maybe.” Then you come and say, “This is what you asked for.” “Oh, no, that is not what I
asked for.” “And what do you want?” Then, “I’m not sure.”
But, still, the development guy was not completely responsible. In fact, now, these users
follow up, et cetera, is done in the marketing department.
Now, there is only one organization. INIST Diffusion is no longer a filiale . There is
only one organization that has obtained, step by step, the right to commercialize. The problem
was obtaining approval from the Ministry of Finance.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, just by way of general assessment as to where INIST has come from, where
do you see it going? With this approach to commercialization, clearly there has to be, now,
some notion of competitiveness with a whole range of other services.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|27}}
 
Because you’re in effect competing for the money of clients who have other options being offered by a whole slew of
database providers in Europe, in the States, elsewhere. I’m curious as to where INIST fits.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I have to say that, now, with the new director, who is a former administrator of
one of the regions, they are coming back to CNRS users. For example, the international
relations are much less international relations than they were when I was there. They are selling
the services—but they are more centered to French researchers. We never had the idea of
competing with other services.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The minute you speak of commercialization, it implies a marketplace in which
there is competition.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, but the goal was to be able to collect the money we were gaining—to
collect and to spend for ourselves. It was not so much to collect more and more money.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Not profit making.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: No. Our problem was that we were doing better services; we were selling more.
All this money was going in a hole without end, which was called the Ministry of Finance. We
never saw the results of our work. What we wanted—and what the CNRS has accepted—is, if
we have more money, we can do better. We didn’t want to ask for more money, but we did
want to do more services. That was the first goal. It was not so much to try to compete with
Chemical Abstracts or whoever else. That was not the goal.
Don’t forget, it’s a public administration. There were philosophical problems with the
British Library at the time. We sometimes thought that they were doing things that were not
very polite or not very good.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yes, they were very commercially-oriented.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But it was never at a personal level. We always had excellent relations with
people like Brian Lang, David Russon, and Maurice Line. We tried even to have an agreement
so that we abandoned the periodicals from which we sold very few articles. But, of course,
competition was always in the air.
Being a public administration, our goal was not to compete with other public
administrations. We wanted to be recognized at the European level as a partner. We succeeded
in doing that. CDST was never recognized apart from Bulletin Signalétique. INIST was
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|28}}
 

recognized, not only here, but we had visitors from China, Japan, and all over Europe. Big
groups of people were coming to see what we were doing. But we never tried to say we were
better than the English, Germans, or whoever.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The British Library thing interested me because there’s no question that when the
National Lending Library for Science and Technology was set up, they developed a very
commercial outlook. They were interested in making money.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, I have visited them.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: And they do make millions of pounds. I was interested that you were saying that
during the move to Nancy, there were four thousand copies of articles being copied a day at that
time. Which is, again, the sort of thing that the British Library was, you know, seeing as—
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were doing maybe ten thousand requests a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: —I wondered to what extent the development of their service actually impinged
on yours.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It didn’t. They were too expensive.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yours was oriented mostly towards people in France?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: For people in France and all over the world. Because we had periodicals that
some people didn’t have. I don’t know where the users were coming from. Also, the British
Library, at that time, was always very complicated with their coupons, et cetera. But, in fact, we
established the same thing. Now, it’s easier with credit cards but, at one time, we couldn’t
accommodate credit cards.
For two years almost, the center never stopped working. That was a burden. That was
very difficult. I worked thirteen or fourteen hours a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I can believe it.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|29}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But we were lucky. We were like pioneers. I had a group of people that didn’t
count their time. It was really a good group of people. My deputy, in fact, was the latest
director of CDSH. She became the chief of INIST human sciences. It worked very well
because we had been working together for twenty-five years. She was a good friend of mine,
and she played the game.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The section concerned with the human sciences stayed in Paris?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It stayed a little bit longer, and then they moved. Yes.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So they’re all in Nancy now?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Recruiting staff, continuing to work, and installing ourselves in a building
of a new conception from Jean Nouvel is not so easy. Jean Nouvel is an architect with ideas—
you have seen his futuristic buildings. It is not so easy to work in a futurist building. Have you
seen the corridors in the library?
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Oh, yes. It looks fascinating, in terms of design, but I wonder what it would be
like to work in it. What was in this area below?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: That was a computer service.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 4]
[END OF INTERVIEW]
{{Article body/End}}

[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Carrière à l'INIST]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Employment at INIST

2021-04-26T09:56:42Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* Differences between Centre de Documentation Scientifique et Technique [CDST] and INIST */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Employment at INIST==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|20}}
[BREAK IN RECORDING]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I said, “All right, after the weekend, I will write you.” Then he said, “Oh, you know, you have to do it.” I said, “Yes, sure. I’m interested.” He said, “Because, you know, don’t forget, you are in secondment—” I said, “Is that a way of threatening me? If I won’t be good, they won’t continue my secondment?” And I told him, “Oh, please, don’t chantage (blackmail) me because I can stay with the UN as long as I want.” And, of course, in CNRS, you have to stay until sixty-five. “I can stay until sixty-two, anyway, and you can stay two years more. You know, considering the money I’m getting here, I will have more money staying three years less in CNRS than two years more.” [laughter]
{{Article body/End}}
===Transition from the United Nations===
{{Article body/Begin}}

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: He said, “No, that was not what I was trying to do.” I said, “All right.” Then he left. I showed him a little bit of what we were doing. After the weekend, I wrote thirty-two pages of comments on this thing. There were a lot of crazy things I could not understand. And I said that. Then I never heard about anything. Because there were problems in Geneva, the Comité Diplomatique said they didn’t want to pay any more money for the library because there were big problems there. The librarian said, “Over my dead body. There will be no computers in the library.” Finally, they negotiated that I could go to Geneva. I had almost finished my automation in New York, and I moved to Geneva. I was happy to move back to Geneva because my kids were in France. I was a little bit lonely. I went back to Geneva and began working. You cannot believe what Geneva was like. There were rooms full of books. If you opened the door, you just had to run very fast because, otherwise, everything was going to fall on you. [laughter] It was terrible. I started buying computers, doing automation, putting things in order in Geneva.

:One day, two years later, I had a call. “I’m the secretary of the director of CRNS. He wants you to come tomorrow to see him.” I said, “Look, lady, [laughter] I am not working for you. The UN is paying me, and I just cannot. Again, it is during the General Assembly.” [laughter] She said, “Yes. So, when can you come?” I said, “I can come on Saturday.” Then I went on Saturday. It was a big room with the director of CNRS, Goéry Delacôte, the director of information, and the chief of personnel of CNRS. They said, “We were very happy about the comments you did,” et cetera. It happened in forty-five minutes. I was thinking, “They didn’t ask me to come from Geneva to listen to how they were happy about the report that I did.”
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|21}}
 
:They said, “Do you know why we have called you?” I said, “No, I have no idea.” “Well, because we want you to take over the INIST.”

:Then, because I was so shocked, I asked a stupid question. I said, “But, I work for the UN and I have no intention of leaving. I have just renewed my contract for the next two years. What happened to Mr. Jakobiac?” He was supposed to take over INIST. I heard, during the two years, that this guy was in charge of INIST.

:As soon as I asked the question, I knew that it was stupid because then they said, “Non, cela n’a pas marché''; it didn’t work,” et cetera. I was a little bit surprised. They said, “We want you to start immediately.” I said, “Are you joking? I just, six months ago, came from New York. I cannot just leave the UN.” They said, “We are going to get someone to replace you.”

:I said, “Look, there was a story in New York. The director of personnel didn’t want me to go to Geneva. Then Geneva said, ‘We cannot do without you. It’s very important,’ et cetera. There was a battle for me to go to Geneva. The director of the Geneva office is not going to accept that I’m being replaced just like that.” They said, “Then, we will find two people.” [laughter] “All right.”
{{Article body/End}}

===Kofi Annan===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then I went to Geneva and talked to the director of the Geneva office—he was a Belgian man at the time. He said, “They are crazy. There is no way. Look, if you want to go back—” I said, “Look, this is my organization. They can force me to go back.” “They wouldn’t force you.” At the same time, the French said, “All right, we can force you.” But it would take two years—going to tribunal.

:Finally, I negotiated that I could do some work with the ''conseil de projet'' (project council) on Saturdays and my vacation days. Which meant, in 1987, I didn’t have any vacation days. I used all my vacation days so that I could find someone to replace me in Geneva and that to give them time for the hiring process. In fact, it was Mr. Kofi Annan, the chief of personnel, who is now the director general. I met him in the French embassy and we negotiated my replacement.
{{Article body/End}}

===Founding of INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then the INIST story started. I discovered that it was going to be very difficult because all the people said, “It’s impossible. It cannot be done.” I talked to some of the people. “You’re crazy to try to do it,” they said. I said, “It could be interesting to start something.” But,all the people said, “No, it’s not feasible. It’s impossible.” INIST started with a lot of difficulties. I moved to Nancy. I was one person with only a secretary and her husband to help me.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:What were all the difficulties that people were referring to?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The difficulties were that the CDST was not prepared to move. We had a library of twenty-seven thousand titles of periodicals on ten floors.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|22}}
 
:We had to move all that, but we could not stop working. We had four thousand requests for photocopies a day at that time. A day! How do you continue to do that? We had to build a building and figure out where to put the staff. Then the staff didn’t want to go. Altogether, thirty people from the whole CNRS went. We had to recruit about three or four hundred people—newcomers—train them, and put them somewhere. When we recruited them, there was nowhere to sit; we had to rent space. We were even in a small castle from the eighteenth century. In this castle alone with a secretary. [laughter] I had to rent in a building the rooms to put the people I was recruiting in. All these people had to be recruited through a National Caucus. It was competitions, because it’s administration. It was a post of a fonctionnaire (civil servant).

:Recruitment was not so easy. I needed ten people as a jury. We had a written exam and then an oral one. We were recruiting twenty-five people at one time. I worked in five places: CDST, rue Boyer, where the remaining staff was; Boulevard Raspail, where CDSH was, the human sciences; and Château du Montet, where I was officially located. But, for political reasons, they wanted me to go there. I was an important person there. I had taken some other things, but we have not time to go through—from the press.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 3]
{{Article body/End}}

===Moving to Nancy, France. ===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Phillips Company moved to the suburbs of Nancy, and they left a big place that we started to use for newcomers. Then, I was at Château du Montet; some people were in Vendoeuvre, in a building where we just rented some rooms; and others were in two places in Paris. In those days, my train left at 6:15 in the morning. Fortunately, they gave me a driver. The driver brought me to the station at six o’clock; at 6:15, I got the train. I arrived in Paris at 9:00 am. I had a driver taking me, and the driver was carrying me to the two centers, from center to center, mostly to CDST because of where we had the library. And at 6:15 pm, I was taking the train back. I arrived at about 10:30 pm to eleven o’clock three times a week.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Sounds appalling.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The rest of the time, I was in Nancy. I did that for three years. [laughter] I wasfortunate to have good health at that time. We started building the new building. I had tofollow the building project and, at the same time, continue to recruit, train, and movepeople.We moved the collections in six weeks, and we neverstopped serving the users. We managedthis because we had prepared the places of the collections by computer. During the day, we puteverythingin a truck andduring the nightwe moved.Then thenext day, the collections wereput in placeand we’d start all over again. We used two trucks a day.

:There were machines left in CDST, and we bought new machines for INIST. As soon as the orders came, we filled them from INIST or CDST. They said it would be impossible. When I told Caroline Wiegandt-Sakoun, a librarian, she thought I was crazy.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|23}}
 
:Not on a big collection; we have changed the places of collection in a library from Vienna. All the collection on drugs came to us, and we moved that from Vienna to Geneva.
{{Article body/End}}
===Recruitment of staff===
{{Article body/Begin}}
:The people worked very hard. Even the people in CDST who were not going to stay did a marvelous job. We hired new people.
:The first people we hired were the ''magasiniers'' (shopkeepers) to put things in place. Every night, there was a librarian staying with them to see that there were no particular questions about where to put things.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Were you still doing the work on developing the database at this time?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:: Yes. The new periodicals were arriving at Nancy, which meant the new people were working on them. The CDST was doing the backlog because some of the people were leaving, and some others didn’t want to work anymore because they were leaving—[gunshot]—midi (noon).
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There’s a gunshot at noon?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, every day at 12:00 pm. So that you can check your watch.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The building site started when?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It started in November, 1987.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: When you were recruiting the staff to set the service up—you had over three hundred people.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. More. We had three hundred fifty, plus the staff to do abstracts from home. Yes, some of the people were doing abstracts at home. Then we started doing them online from home also.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What proportion of the abstracts was done outside by this piecework process? It was a piecework process, really, wasn’t it?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Maybe half of the abstracts. But much less of the indexing was done that way.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|24}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The indexing was done in-house, essentially.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes.
{{Article body/End}}

===Differences between Centre de Documentation Scientifique et Technique [CDST] and INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Let’s talk a little about the changing philosophy and the approach represented in the INIST as opposed to the earlier CDST. Because so few of the staff actually transferred, it was actually a new organization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. This was what we wanted. The most important change was that commercialization became an important part. We tried—and it is very difficult in an organization that is a public administration—to have a commercial department. We were not supposed to sell things. But we obtained permission from the Ministry of Finance to create a filiale (subsidiary company), the commercialization section.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: This is like a company that’s set up apart?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, a filiale is a part of the INIST group. In the INIST group we had INIST and INIST Diffusion. INIST Diffusion was in charge of commercialization. There were thirty or so employees. INIST had several directorates and one department of research. There was a directorate of production, development, external relations, administration and finance, and this filiale.
====INIST Diffusion====
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was commercialization held at arm’s length?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. It was a part of the company but was separate. INIST Diffusion was in charge of the commercialization and promotion of the product. It had the exclusivity of promotion and commercialization of all the INIST products. They say it’s an interface to adapt the offer to the demand. They were also able to collect the money that we were not able to.
:We were only able to spend money. It was a big budget, four hundred million francs a year. We had a big budget, but we had a controller. You can’t spend twenty cents without the controller’s approval about the way it was spent. The filiale was created in October, 1988.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: That was very close to the beginning.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|25}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: On 15 March 1987, the institute was officially created. But the conception of it started earlier. In September, with the director general of CNRS, we decided to start. We started recruiting the personnel of INIST in December. In November 1989, we started the construction of the buildings. It was very fast construction. In November and December, wetransferred the collections. In January 1990, INIST Diffusion started to function officially. In fact, in January, 1990, we had started to charge the users through INIST Diffusion. Before, it was charged by us but the money was collected by CNRS.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: But, of course, now, those services are entirely digital. They’re online, or on CD-ROMs. Are they no longer printed?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Printing was abandoned in 1992, I think it was.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, what were the reasons for deciding to no longer print? You mentioned escalating costs before.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Also we wanted to move from a publication center to a new center, and we couldn’t do everything. We were selling CD-ROMs, profiles, and bibliographic searches.
We sold other formats because not all our users were able to use CD-ROMs at that time. CD-
ROM use really started in the 1990s.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were ahead of your time in providing this sort of digital service.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. We were the first in Europe. It was very difficult to choose the
technology. In fact, we didn’t choose very good technology because we started with big digital
discs. This has not proved to be the best choice.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I assume, though, that there’s a constant transfer of the technology.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We change the technology all the time. The goal of Delacôte was to have a new
technology center.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What was the research department doing?

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|26}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They did a lot of bibliometry, automatic indexing, statistics, and infométrie
(infometry). It was very important for CNRS to know who was doing what. Of course, this
analysis was a preliminary study for the assisted indexing system that they were working on.
We were working on a linguistic approach with a company called ALETH—
segmentation techniques, optical character recognition—a preliminary study of an assisted
indexing system evaluation and prospects. They were really a research department. Sometimes,
we were a little bit unhappy that they were too research-oriented and not concentrating enough
in applications. Then we remembered that we were CNRS, and we couldn’t kill research.
[laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There was a development department.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were cognitive sciences. They were studying a lot of things that could
help our staff to work better and do some research in cooperation with research institutes from
Nancy that worked in linguistics and computers.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was some of what they were doing incorporated into the work of INIST?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Automatic indexing, for example. Pieces of it were incorporated into the
computer system. The computer system was quite sophisticated. We had fifty people working on it.
At one time, the department of development was one guy. [laughter] His goal was to
steer the center to where the users wanted it. Honestly, he didn’t work very well. A few things
came from it as far as knowing what the researchers wanted. But, you know, the researchers—
they don’t even know what they want. You just ask them, “Do you want that?” They say, “Oh,
yes, maybe.” Then you come and say, “This is what you asked for.” “Oh, no, that is not what I
asked for.” “And what do you want?” Then, “I’m not sure.”
But, still, the development guy was not completely responsible. In fact, now, these users
follow up, et cetera, is done in the marketing department.
Now, there is only one organization. INIST Diffusion is no longer a filiale . There is
only one organization that has obtained, step by step, the right to commercialize. The problem
was obtaining approval from the Ministry of Finance.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, just by way of general assessment as to where INIST has come from, where
do you see it going? With this approach to commercialization, clearly there has to be, now,
some notion of competitiveness with a whole range of other services.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|27}}
 
Because you’re in effect competing for the money of clients who have other options being offered by a whole slew of
database providers in Europe, in the States, elsewhere. I’m curious as to where INIST fits.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I have to say that, now, with the new director, who is a former administrator of
one of the regions, they are coming back to CNRS users. For example, the international
relations are much less international relations than they were when I was there. They are selling
the services—but they are more centered to French researchers. We never had the idea of
competing with other services.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The minute you speak of commercialization, it implies a marketplace in which
there is competition.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, but the goal was to be able to collect the money we were gaining—to
collect and to spend for ourselves. It was not so much to collect more and more money.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Not profit making.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: No. Our problem was that we were doing better services; we were selling more.
All this money was going in a hole without end, which was called the Ministry of Finance. We
never saw the results of our work. What we wanted—and what the CNRS has accepted—is, if
we have more money, we can do better. We didn’t want to ask for more money, but we did
want to do more services. That was the first goal. It was not so much to try to compete with
Chemical Abstracts or whoever else. That was not the goal.
Don’t forget, it’s a public administration. There were philosophical problems with the
British Library at the time. We sometimes thought that they were doing things that were not
very polite or not very good.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yes, they were very commercially-oriented.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But it was never at a personal level. We always had excellent relations with
people like Brian Lang, David Russon, and Maurice Line. We tried even to have an agreement
so that we abandoned the periodicals from which we sold very few articles. But, of course,
competition was always in the air.
Being a public administration, our goal was not to compete with other public
administrations. We wanted to be recognized at the European level as a partner. We succeeded
in doing that. CDST was never recognized apart from Bulletin Signalétique. INIST was
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|28}}
 

recognized, not only here, but we had visitors from China, Japan, and all over Europe. Big
groups of people were coming to see what we were doing. But we never tried to say we were
better than the English, Germans, or whoever.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The British Library thing interested me because there’s no question that when the
National Lending Library for Science and Technology was set up, they developed a very
commercial outlook. They were interested in making money.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, I have visited them.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: And they do make millions of pounds. I was interested that you were saying that
during the move to Nancy, there were four thousand copies of articles being copied a day at that
time. Which is, again, the sort of thing that the British Library was, you know, seeing as—
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were doing maybe ten thousand requests a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: —I wondered to what extent the development of their service actually impinged
on yours.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It didn’t. They were too expensive.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yours was oriented mostly towards people in France?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: For people in France and all over the world. Because we had periodicals that
some people didn’t have. I don’t know where the users were coming from. Also, the British
Library, at that time, was always very complicated with their coupons, et cetera. But, in fact, we
established the same thing. Now, it’s easier with credit cards but, at one time, we couldn’t
accommodate credit cards.
For two years almost, the center never stopped working. That was a burden. That was
very difficult. I worked thirteen or fourteen hours a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I can believe it.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|29}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But we were lucky. We were like pioneers. I had a group of people that didn’t
count their time. It was really a good group of people. My deputy, in fact, was the latest
director of CDSH. She became the chief of INIST human sciences. It worked very well
because we had been working together for twenty-five years. She was a good friend of mine,
and she played the game.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The section concerned with the human sciences stayed in Paris?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It stayed a little bit longer, and then they moved. Yes.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So they’re all in Nancy now?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Recruiting staff, continuing to work, and installing ourselves in a building
of a new conception from Jean Nouvel is not so easy. Jean Nouvel is an architect with ideas—
you have seen his futuristic buildings. It is not so easy to work in a futurist building. Have you
seen the corridors in the library?
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Oh, yes. It looks fascinating, in terms of design, but I wonder what it would be
like to work in it. What was in this area below?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: That was a computer service.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 4]
[END OF INTERVIEW]
{{Article body/End}}

[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Carrière à l'INIST]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Employment at INIST

2021-04-26T09:42:32Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* Recruitment of staff */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Employment at INIST==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|20}}
[BREAK IN RECORDING]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I said, “All right, after the weekend, I will write you.” Then he said, “Oh, you know, you have to do it.” I said, “Yes, sure. I’m interested.” He said, “Because, you know, don’t forget, you are in secondment—” I said, “Is that a way of threatening me? If I won’t be good, they won’t continue my secondment?” And I told him, “Oh, please, don’t chantage (blackmail) me because I can stay with the UN as long as I want.” And, of course, in CNRS, you have to stay until sixty-five. “I can stay until sixty-two, anyway, and you can stay two years more. You know, considering the money I’m getting here, I will have more money staying three years less in CNRS than two years more.” [laughter]
{{Article body/End}}
===Transition from the United Nations===
{{Article body/Begin}}

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: He said, “No, that was not what I was trying to do.” I said, “All right.” Then he left. I showed him a little bit of what we were doing. After the weekend, I wrote thirty-two pages of comments on this thing. There were a lot of crazy things I could not understand. And I said that. Then I never heard about anything. Because there were problems in Geneva, the Comité Diplomatique said they didn’t want to pay any more money for the library because there were big problems there. The librarian said, “Over my dead body. There will be no computers in the library.” Finally, they negotiated that I could go to Geneva. I had almost finished my automation in New York, and I moved to Geneva. I was happy to move back to Geneva because my kids were in France. I was a little bit lonely. I went back to Geneva and began working. You cannot believe what Geneva was like. There were rooms full of books. If you opened the door, you just had to run very fast because, otherwise, everything was going to fall on you. [laughter] It was terrible. I started buying computers, doing automation, putting things in order in Geneva.

:One day, two years later, I had a call. “I’m the secretary of the director of CRNS. He wants you to come tomorrow to see him.” I said, “Look, lady, [laughter] I am not working for you. The UN is paying me, and I just cannot. Again, it is during the General Assembly.” [laughter] She said, “Yes. So, when can you come?” I said, “I can come on Saturday.” Then I went on Saturday. It was a big room with the director of CNRS, Goéry Delacôte, the director of information, and the chief of personnel of CNRS. They said, “We were very happy about the comments you did,” et cetera. It happened in forty-five minutes. I was thinking, “They didn’t ask me to come from Geneva to listen to how they were happy about the report that I did.”
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|21}}
 
:They said, “Do you know why we have called you?” I said, “No, I have no idea.” “Well, because we want you to take over the INIST.”

:Then, because I was so shocked, I asked a stupid question. I said, “But, I work for the UN and I have no intention of leaving. I have just renewed my contract for the next two years. What happened to Mr. Jakobiac?” He was supposed to take over INIST. I heard, during the two years, that this guy was in charge of INIST.

:As soon as I asked the question, I knew that it was stupid because then they said, “Non, cela n’a pas marché''; it didn’t work,” et cetera. I was a little bit surprised. They said, “We want you to start immediately.” I said, “Are you joking? I just, six months ago, came from New York. I cannot just leave the UN.” They said, “We are going to get someone to replace you.”

:I said, “Look, there was a story in New York. The director of personnel didn’t want me to go to Geneva. Then Geneva said, ‘We cannot do without you. It’s very important,’ et cetera. There was a battle for me to go to Geneva. The director of the Geneva office is not going to accept that I’m being replaced just like that.” They said, “Then, we will find two people.” [laughter] “All right.”
{{Article body/End}}

===Kofi Annan===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then I went to Geneva and talked to the director of the Geneva office—he was a Belgian man at the time. He said, “They are crazy. There is no way. Look, if you want to go back—” I said, “Look, this is my organization. They can force me to go back.” “They wouldn’t force you.” At the same time, the French said, “All right, we can force you.” But it would take two years—going to tribunal.

:Finally, I negotiated that I could do some work with the ''conseil de projet'' (project council) on Saturdays and my vacation days. Which meant, in 1987, I didn’t have any vacation days. I used all my vacation days so that I could find someone to replace me in Geneva and that to give them time for the hiring process. In fact, it was Mr. Kofi Annan, the chief of personnel, who is now the director general. I met him in the French embassy and we negotiated my replacement.
{{Article body/End}}

===Founding of INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then the INIST story started. I discovered that it was going to be very difficult because all the people said, “It’s impossible. It cannot be done.” I talked to some of the people. “You’re crazy to try to do it,” they said. I said, “It could be interesting to start something.” But,all the people said, “No, it’s not feasible. It’s impossible.” INIST started with a lot of difficulties. I moved to Nancy. I was one person with only a secretary and her husband to help me.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:What were all the difficulties that people were referring to?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The difficulties were that the CDST was not prepared to move. We had a library of twenty-seven thousand titles of periodicals on ten floors.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|22}}
 
:We had to move all that, but we could not stop working. We had four thousand requests for photocopies a day at that time. A day! How do you continue to do that? We had to build a building and figure out where to put the staff. Then the staff didn’t want to go. Altogether, thirty people from the whole CNRS went. We had to recruit about three or four hundred people—newcomers—train them, and put them somewhere. When we recruited them, there was nowhere to sit; we had to rent space. We were even in a small castle from the eighteenth century. In this castle alone with a secretary. [laughter] I had to rent in a building the rooms to put the people I was recruiting in. All these people had to be recruited through a National Caucus. It was competitions, because it’s administration. It was a post of a fonctionnaire (civil servant).

:Recruitment was not so easy. I needed ten people as a jury. We had a written exam and then an oral one. We were recruiting twenty-five people at one time. I worked in five places: CDST, rue Boyer, where the remaining staff was; Boulevard Raspail, where CDSH was, the human sciences; and Château du Montet, where I was officially located. But, for political reasons, they wanted me to go there. I was an important person there. I had taken some other things, but we have not time to go through—from the press.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 3]
{{Article body/End}}

===Moving to Nancy, France. ===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Phillips Company moved to the suburbs of Nancy, and they left a big place that we started to use for newcomers. Then, I was at Château du Montet; some people were in Vendoeuvre, in a building where we just rented some rooms; and others were in two places in Paris. In those days, my train left at 6:15 in the morning. Fortunately, they gave me a driver. The driver brought me to the station at six o’clock; at 6:15, I got the train. I arrived in Paris at 9:00 am. I had a driver taking me, and the driver was carrying me to the two centers, from center to center, mostly to CDST because of where we had the library. And at 6:15 pm, I was taking the train back. I arrived at about 10:30 pm to eleven o’clock three times a week.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Sounds appalling.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The rest of the time, I was in Nancy. I did that for three years. [laughter] I wasfortunate to have good health at that time. We started building the new building. I had tofollow the building project and, at the same time, continue to recruit, train, and movepeople.We moved the collections in six weeks, and we neverstopped serving the users. We managedthis because we had prepared the places of the collections by computer. During the day, we puteverythingin a truck andduring the nightwe moved.Then thenext day, the collections wereput in placeand we’d start all over again. We used two trucks a day.

:There were machines left in CDST, and we bought new machines for INIST. As soon as the orders came, we filled them from INIST or CDST. They said it would be impossible. When I told Caroline Wiegandt-Sakoun, a librarian, she thought I was crazy.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|23}}
 
:Not on a big collection; we have changed the places of collection in a library from Vienna. All the collection on drugs came to us, and we moved that from Vienna to Geneva.
{{Article body/End}}
===Recruitment of staff===
{{Article body/Begin}}
:The people worked very hard. Even the people in CDST who were not going to stay did a marvelous job. We hired new people.
:The first people we hired were the ''magasiniers'' (shopkeepers) to put things in place. Every night, there was a librarian staying with them to see that there were no particular questions about where to put things.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Were you still doing the work on developing the database at this time?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:: Yes. The new periodicals were arriving at Nancy, which meant the new people were working on them. The CDST was doing the backlog because some of the people were leaving, and some others didn’t want to work anymore because they were leaving—[gunshot]—midi (noon).
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There’s a gunshot at noon?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, every day at 12:00 pm. So that you can check your watch.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The building site started when?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It started in November, 1987.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: When you were recruiting the staff to set the service up—you had over three hundred people.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. More. We had three hundred fifty, plus the staff to do abstracts from home. Yes, some of the people were doing abstracts at home. Then we started doing them online from home also.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What proportion of the abstracts was done outside by this piecework process? It was a piecework process, really, wasn’t it?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Maybe half of the abstracts. But much less of the indexing was done that way.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|24}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The indexing was done in-house, essentially.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes.
{{Article body/End}}

===Differences between Centre de Documentation Scientifique et Technique [CDST] and INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Let’s talk a little about the changing philosophy and the approach represented in the INIST as opposed to the earlier CDST. Because so few of the staff actually transferred, it was actually a new organization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. This was what we wanted. The most important change was that commercialization became an important part. We tried—and it is very difficult in an organization that is a public administration—to have a commercial department. We were not supposed to sell things. But we obtained permission from the Ministry of Finance to create a filiale (subsidiary company), the commercialization section.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: This is like a company that’s set up apart?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, a filiale is a part of the INIST group. In the INIST group we had INIST and INIST Diffusion. INIST Diffusion was in charge of commercialization. There were thirty or so employees. INIST had several directorates and one department of research. There was a
directorate of production, development, external relations, administration and finance, and this filiale.
====INIST Diffusion====
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was commercialization held at arm’s length?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. It was a part of the company but was separate. INIST Diffusion was in charge of the commercialization and promotion of the product. It had the exclusivity of promotion and commercialization of all the INIST products. They say it’s an interface to adapt the offer to the demand. They were also able to collect the money that we were not able to.
We were only able to spend money. It was a big budget, four hundred million francs a
year. We had a big budget, but we had a controller. You can’t spend twenty cents without the
controller’s approval about the way it was spent. The filiale was created in October, 1988.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: That was very close to the beginning.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|25}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: On 15 March 1987, the institute was officially created. But the conception of it
started earlier. In September, with the director general of CNRS, we decided to start. We
started recruiting the personnel of INIST in December. In November 1989, we started the
construction of the buildings. It was very fast construction. In November and December, we
transferred the collections. In January 1990, INIST Diffusion started to function officially. In
fact, in January, 1990, we had started to charge the users through INIST Diffusion. Before, it
was charged by us but the money was collected by CNRS.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: But, of course, now, those services are entirely digital. They’re online, or on CD-
ROMs. Are they no longer printed?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Printing was abandoned in 1992, I think it was.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, what were the reasons for deciding to no longer print? You mentioned escalating costs before.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Also we wanted to move from a publication center to a new center, and
we couldn’t do everything. We were selling CD-ROMs, profiles, and bibliographic searches.
We sold other formats because not all our users were able to use CD-ROMs at that time. CD-
ROM use really started in the 1990s.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were ahead of your time in providing this sort of digital service.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. We were the first in Europe. It was very difficult to choose the
technology. In fact, we didn’t choose very good technology because we started with big digital
discs. This has not proved to be the best choice.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I assume, though, that there’s a constant transfer of the technology.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We change the technology all the time. The goal of Delacôte was to have a new
technology center.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What was the research department doing?

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|26}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They did a lot of bibliometry, automatic indexing, statistics, and infométrie
(infometry). It was very important for CNRS to know who was doing what. Of course, this
analysis was a preliminary study for the assisted indexing system that they were working on.
We were working on a linguistic approach with a company called ALETH—
segmentation techniques, optical character recognition—a preliminary study of an assisted
indexing system evaluation and prospects. They were really a research department. Sometimes,
we were a little bit unhappy that they were too research-oriented and not concentrating enough
in applications. Then we remembered that we were CNRS, and we couldn’t kill research.
[laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There was a development department.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were cognitive sciences. They were studying a lot of things that could
help our staff to work better and do some research in cooperation with research institutes from
Nancy that worked in linguistics and computers.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was some of what they were doing incorporated into the work of INIST?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Automatic indexing, for example. Pieces of it were incorporated into the
computer system. The computer system was quite sophisticated. We had fifty people working on it.
At one time, the department of development was one guy. [laughter] His goal was to
steer the center to where the users wanted it. Honestly, he didn’t work very well. A few things
came from it as far as knowing what the researchers wanted. But, you know, the researchers—
they don’t even know what they want. You just ask them, “Do you want that?” They say, “Oh,
yes, maybe.” Then you come and say, “This is what you asked for.” “Oh, no, that is not what I
asked for.” “And what do you want?” Then, “I’m not sure.”
But, still, the development guy was not completely responsible. In fact, now, these users
follow up, et cetera, is done in the marketing department.
Now, there is only one organization. INIST Diffusion is no longer a filiale . There is
only one organization that has obtained, step by step, the right to commercialize. The problem
was obtaining approval from the Ministry of Finance.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, just by way of general assessment as to where INIST has come from, where
do you see it going? With this approach to commercialization, clearly there has to be, now,
some notion of competitiveness with a whole range of other services.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|27}}
 
Because you’re in effect competing for the money of clients who have other options being offered by a whole slew of
database providers in Europe, in the States, elsewhere. I’m curious as to where INIST fits.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I have to say that, now, with the new director, who is a former administrator of
one of the regions, they are coming back to CNRS users. For example, the international
relations are much less international relations than they were when I was there. They are selling
the services—but they are more centered to French researchers. We never had the idea of
competing with other services.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The minute you speak of commercialization, it implies a marketplace in which
there is competition.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, but the goal was to be able to collect the money we were gaining—to
collect and to spend for ourselves. It was not so much to collect more and more money.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Not profit making.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: No. Our problem was that we were doing better services; we were selling more.
All this money was going in a hole without end, which was called the Ministry of Finance. We
never saw the results of our work. What we wanted—and what the CNRS has accepted—is, if
we have more money, we can do better. We didn’t want to ask for more money, but we did
want to do more services. That was the first goal. It was not so much to try to compete with
Chemical Abstracts or whoever else. That was not the goal.
Don’t forget, it’s a public administration. There were philosophical problems with the
British Library at the time. We sometimes thought that they were doing things that were not
very polite or not very good.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yes, they were very commercially-oriented.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But it was never at a personal level. We always had excellent relations with
people like Brian Lang, David Russon, and Maurice Line. We tried even to have an agreement
so that we abandoned the periodicals from which we sold very few articles. But, of course,
competition was always in the air.
Being a public administration, our goal was not to compete with other public
administrations. We wanted to be recognized at the European level as a partner. We succeeded
in doing that. CDST was never recognized apart from Bulletin Signalétique. INIST was
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|28}}
 

recognized, not only here, but we had visitors from China, Japan, and all over Europe. Big
groups of people were coming to see what we were doing. But we never tried to say we were
better than the English, Germans, or whoever.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The British Library thing interested me because there’s no question that when the
National Lending Library for Science and Technology was set up, they developed a very
commercial outlook. They were interested in making money.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, I have visited them.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: And they do make millions of pounds. I was interested that you were saying that
during the move to Nancy, there were four thousand copies of articles being copied a day at that
time. Which is, again, the sort of thing that the British Library was, you know, seeing as—
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were doing maybe ten thousand requests a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: —I wondered to what extent the development of their service actually impinged
on yours.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It didn’t. They were too expensive.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yours was oriented mostly towards people in France?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: For people in France and all over the world. Because we had periodicals that
some people didn’t have. I don’t know where the users were coming from. Also, the British
Library, at that time, was always very complicated with their coupons, et cetera. But, in fact, we
established the same thing. Now, it’s easier with credit cards but, at one time, we couldn’t
accommodate credit cards.
For two years almost, the center never stopped working. That was a burden. That was
very difficult. I worked thirteen or fourteen hours a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I can believe it.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|29}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But we were lucky. We were like pioneers. I had a group of people that didn’t
count their time. It was really a good group of people. My deputy, in fact, was the latest
director of CDSH. She became the chief of INIST human sciences. It worked very well
because we had been working together for twenty-five years. She was a good friend of mine,
and she played the game.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The section concerned with the human sciences stayed in Paris?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It stayed a little bit longer, and then they moved. Yes.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So they’re all in Nancy now?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Recruiting staff, continuing to work, and installing ourselves in a building
of a new conception from Jean Nouvel is not so easy. Jean Nouvel is an architect with ideas—
you have seen his futuristic buildings. It is not so easy to work in a futurist building. Have you
seen the corridors in the library?
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Oh, yes. It looks fascinating, in terms of design, but I wonder what it would be
like to work in it. What was in this area below?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: That was a computer service.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 4]
[END OF INTERVIEW]
{{Article body/End}}

[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Carrière à l'INIST]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Employment at INIST

2021-04-26T09:36:26Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* Differences betweenCentre de Documentation Scientifique et Technique [CDST] and INIST */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Employment at INIST==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|20}}
[BREAK IN RECORDING]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I said, “All right, after the weekend, I will write you.” Then he said, “Oh, you know, you have to do it.” I said, “Yes, sure. I’m interested.” He said, “Because, you know, don’t forget, you are in secondment—” I said, “Is that a way of threatening me? If I won’t be good, they won’t continue my secondment?” And I told him, “Oh, please, don’t chantage (blackmail) me because I can stay with the UN as long as I want.” And, of course, in CNRS, you have to stay until sixty-five. “I can stay until sixty-two, anyway, and you can stay two years more. You know, considering the money I’m getting here, I will have more money staying three years less in CNRS than two years more.” [laughter]
{{Article body/End}}
===Transition from the United Nations===
{{Article body/Begin}}

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: He said, “No, that was not what I was trying to do.” I said, “All right.” Then he left. I showed him a little bit of what we were doing. After the weekend, I wrote thirty-two pages of comments on this thing. There were a lot of crazy things I could not understand. And I said that. Then I never heard about anything. Because there were problems in Geneva, the Comité Diplomatique said they didn’t want to pay any more money for the library because there were big problems there. The librarian said, “Over my dead body. There will be no computers in the library.” Finally, they negotiated that I could go to Geneva. I had almost finished my automation in New York, and I moved to Geneva. I was happy to move back to Geneva because my kids were in France. I was a little bit lonely. I went back to Geneva and began working. You cannot believe what Geneva was like. There were rooms full of books. If you opened the door, you just had to run very fast because, otherwise, everything was going to fall on you. [laughter] It was terrible. I started buying computers, doing automation, putting things in order in Geneva.

:One day, two years later, I had a call. “I’m the secretary of the director of CRNS. He wants you to come tomorrow to see him.” I said, “Look, lady, [laughter] I am not working for you. The UN is paying me, and I just cannot. Again, it is during the General Assembly.” [laughter] She said, “Yes. So, when can you come?” I said, “I can come on Saturday.” Then I went on Saturday. It was a big room with the director of CNRS, Goéry Delacôte, the director of information, and the chief of personnel of CNRS. They said, “We were very happy about the comments you did,” et cetera. It happened in forty-five minutes. I was thinking, “They didn’t ask me to come from Geneva to listen to how they were happy about the report that I did.”
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|21}}
 
:They said, “Do you know why we have called you?” I said, “No, I have no idea.” “Well, because we want you to take over the INIST.”

:Then, because I was so shocked, I asked a stupid question. I said, “But, I work for the UN and I have no intention of leaving. I have just renewed my contract for the next two years. What happened to Mr. Jakobiac?” He was supposed to take over INIST. I heard, during the two years, that this guy was in charge of INIST.

:As soon as I asked the question, I knew that it was stupid because then they said, “Non, cela n’a pas marché''; it didn’t work,” et cetera. I was a little bit surprised. They said, “We want you to start immediately.” I said, “Are you joking? I just, six months ago, came from New York. I cannot just leave the UN.” They said, “We are going to get someone to replace you.”

:I said, “Look, there was a story in New York. The director of personnel didn’t want me to go to Geneva. Then Geneva said, ‘We cannot do without you. It’s very important,’ et cetera. There was a battle for me to go to Geneva. The director of the Geneva office is not going to accept that I’m being replaced just like that.” They said, “Then, we will find two people.” [laughter] “All right.”
{{Article body/End}}

===Kofi Annan===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then I went to Geneva and talked to the director of the Geneva office—he was a Belgian man at the time. He said, “They are crazy. There is no way. Look, if you want to go back—” I said, “Look, this is my organization. They can force me to go back.” “They wouldn’t force you.” At the same time, the French said, “All right, we can force you.” But it would take two years—going to tribunal.

:Finally, I negotiated that I could do some work with the ''conseil de projet'' (project council) on Saturdays and my vacation days. Which meant, in 1987, I didn’t have any vacation days. I used all my vacation days so that I could find someone to replace me in Geneva and that to give them time for the hiring process. In fact, it was Mr. Kofi Annan, the chief of personnel, who is now the director general. I met him in the French embassy and we negotiated my replacement.
{{Article body/End}}

===Founding of INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Then the INIST story started. I discovered that it was going to be very difficult because all the people said, “It’s impossible. It cannot be done.” I talked to some of the people. “You’re crazy to try to do it,” they said. I said, “It could be interesting to start something.” But,all the people said, “No, it’s not feasible. It’s impossible.” INIST started with a lot of difficulties. I moved to Nancy. I was one person with only a secretary and her husband to help me.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:What were all the difficulties that people were referring to?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The difficulties were that the CDST was not prepared to move. We had a library of twenty-seven thousand titles of periodicals on ten floors.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|22}}
 
:We had to move all that, but we could not stop working. We had four thousand requests for photocopies a day at that time. A day! How do you continue to do that? We had to build a building and figure out where to put the staff. Then the staff didn’t want to go. Altogether, thirty people from the whole CNRS went. We had to recruit about three or four hundred people—newcomers—train them, and put them somewhere. When we recruited them, there was nowhere to sit; we had to rent space. We were even in a small castle from the eighteenth century. In this castle alone with a secretary. [laughter] I had to rent in a building the rooms to put the people I was recruiting in. All these people had to be recruited through a National Caucus. It was competitions, because it’s administration. It was a post of a fonctionnaire (civil servant).

:Recruitment was not so easy. I needed ten people as a jury. We had a written exam and then an oral one. We were recruiting twenty-five people at one time. I worked in five places: CDST, rue Boyer, where the remaining staff was; Boulevard Raspail, where CDSH was, the human sciences; and Château du Montet, where I was officially located. But, for political reasons, they wanted me to go there. I was an important person there. I had taken some other things, but we have not time to go through—from the press.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 3]
{{Article body/End}}

===Moving to Nancy, France. ===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Phillips Company moved to the suburbs of Nancy, and they left a big place that we started to use for newcomers. Then, I was at Château du Montet; some people were in Vendoeuvre, in a building where we just rented some rooms; and others were in two places in Paris. In those days, my train left at 6:15 in the morning. Fortunately, they gave me a driver. The driver brought me to the station at six o’clock; at 6:15, I got the train. I arrived in Paris at 9:00 am. I had a driver taking me, and the driver was carrying me to the two centers, from center to center, mostly to CDST because of where we had the library. And at 6:15 pm, I was taking the train back. I arrived at about 10:30 pm to eleven o’clock three times a week.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Sounds appalling.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The rest of the time, I was in Nancy. I did that for three years. [laughter] I wasfortunate to have good health at that time. We started building the new building. I had tofollow the building project and, at the same time, continue to recruit, train, and movepeople.We moved the collections in six weeks, and we neverstopped serving the users. We managedthis because we had prepared the places of the collections by computer. During the day, we puteverythingin a truck andduring the nightwe moved.Then thenext day, the collections wereput in placeand we’d start all over again. We used two trucks a day.

:There were machines left in CDST, and we bought new machines for INIST. As soon as the orders came, we filled them from INIST or CDST. They said it would be impossible. When I told Caroline Wiegandt-Sakoun, a librarian, she thought I was crazy.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|23}}
 
:Not on a big collection; we have changed the places of collection in a library from Vienna. All the collection on drugs came to us, and we moved that from Vienna to Geneva.
{{Article body/End}}
===Recruitment of staff===
{{Article body/Begin}}
The people worked very hard. Even the people in CDST who were not going to stay did a marvelous job. We hired new people. The first people we hired were the ''magasiniers'' (shopkeepers) to put things in place. Every night, there was a librarian staying with them to see that there were no particular questions about where to put things.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Were you still doing the work on developing the database at this time?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:: Yes. The new periodicals were arriving at Nancy, which meant the new people were working on them. The CDST was doing the backlog because some of the people were leaving, and some others didn’t want to work anymore because they were leaving—[gunshot]—midi (noon).
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There’s a gunshot at noon?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, every day at 12:00 pm. So that you can check your watch.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The building site started when?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It started in November, 1987.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: When you were recruiting the staff to set the service up—you had over three hundred people.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. More. We had three hundred fifty, plus the staff to do abstracts from home. Yes, some of the people were doing abstracts at home. Then we started doing them online from home also.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What proportion of the abstracts was done outside by this piecework process? It was a piecework process, really, wasn’t it?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Maybe half of the abstracts. But much less of the indexing was done that way.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|24}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The indexing was done in-house, essentially.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes.
{{Article body/End}}

===Differences between Centre de Documentation Scientifique et Technique [CDST] and INIST===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Let’s talk a little about the changing philosophy and the approach represented in the INIST as opposed to the earlier CDST. Because so few of the staff actually transferred, it was actually a new organization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. This was what we wanted. The most important change was that commercialization became an important part. We tried—and it is very difficult in an organization that is a public administration—to have a commercial department. We were not supposed to sell things. But we obtained permission from the Ministry of Finance to create a filiale (subsidiary company), the commercialization section.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: This is like a company that’s set up apart?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, a filiale is a part of the INIST group. In the INIST group we had INIST and INIST Diffusion. INIST Diffusion was in charge of commercialization. There were thirty or so employees. INIST had several directorates and one department of research. There was a
directorate of production, development, external relations, administration and finance, and this filiale.
====INIST Diffusion====
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was commercialization held at arm’s length?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. It was a part of the company but was separate. INIST Diffusion was in charge of the commercialization and promotion of the product. It had the exclusivity of promotion and commercialization of all the INIST products. They say it’s an interface to adapt the offer to the demand. They were also able to collect the money that we were not able to.
We were only able to spend money. It was a big budget, four hundred million francs a
year. We had a big budget, but we had a controller. You can’t spend twenty cents without the
controller’s approval about the way it was spent. The filiale was created in October, 1988.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: That was very close to the beginning.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|25}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: On 15 March 1987, the institute was officially created. But the conception of it
started earlier. In September, with the director general of CNRS, we decided to start. We
started recruiting the personnel of INIST in December. In November 1989, we started the
construction of the buildings. It was very fast construction. In November and December, we
transferred the collections. In January 1990, INIST Diffusion started to function officially. In
fact, in January, 1990, we had started to charge the users through INIST Diffusion. Before, it
was charged by us but the money was collected by CNRS.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: But, of course, now, those services are entirely digital. They’re online, or on CD-
ROMs. Are they no longer printed?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Printing was abandoned in 1992, I think it was.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, what were the reasons for deciding to no longer print? You mentioned escalating costs before.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Also we wanted to move from a publication center to a new center, and
we couldn’t do everything. We were selling CD-ROMs, profiles, and bibliographic searches.
We sold other formats because not all our users were able to use CD-ROMs at that time. CD-
ROM use really started in the 1990s.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were ahead of your time in providing this sort of digital service.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. We were the first in Europe. It was very difficult to choose the
technology. In fact, we didn’t choose very good technology because we started with big digital
discs. This has not proved to be the best choice.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I assume, though, that there’s a constant transfer of the technology.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We change the technology all the time. The goal of Delacôte was to have a new
technology center.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: What was the research department doing?

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|26}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They did a lot of bibliometry, automatic indexing, statistics, and infométrie
(infometry). It was very important for CNRS to know who was doing what. Of course, this
analysis was a preliminary study for the assisted indexing system that they were working on.
We were working on a linguistic approach with a company called ALETH—
segmentation techniques, optical character recognition—a preliminary study of an assisted
indexing system evaluation and prospects. They were really a research department. Sometimes,
we were a little bit unhappy that they were too research-oriented and not concentrating enough
in applications. Then we remembered that we were CNRS, and we couldn’t kill research.
[laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: There was a development department.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were cognitive sciences. They were studying a lot of things that could
help our staff to work better and do some research in cooperation with research institutes from
Nancy that worked in linguistics and computers.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Was some of what they were doing incorporated into the work of INIST?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Automatic indexing, for example. Pieces of it were incorporated into the
computer system. The computer system was quite sophisticated. We had fifty people working on it.
At one time, the department of development was one guy. [laughter] His goal was to
steer the center to where the users wanted it. Honestly, he didn’t work very well. A few things
came from it as far as knowing what the researchers wanted. But, you know, the researchers—
they don’t even know what they want. You just ask them, “Do you want that?” They say, “Oh,
yes, maybe.” Then you come and say, “This is what you asked for.” “Oh, no, that is not what I
asked for.” “And what do you want?” Then, “I’m not sure.”
But, still, the development guy was not completely responsible. In fact, now, these users
follow up, et cetera, is done in the marketing department.
Now, there is only one organization. INIST Diffusion is no longer a filiale . There is
only one organization that has obtained, step by step, the right to commercialize. The problem
was obtaining approval from the Ministry of Finance.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So, just by way of general assessment as to where INIST has come from, where
do you see it going? With this approach to commercialization, clearly there has to be, now,
some notion of competitiveness with a whole range of other services.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|27}}
 
Because you’re in effect competing for the money of clients who have other options being offered by a whole slew of
database providers in Europe, in the States, elsewhere. I’m curious as to where INIST fits.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I have to say that, now, with the new director, who is a former administrator of
one of the regions, they are coming back to CNRS users. For example, the international
relations are much less international relations than they were when I was there. They are selling
the services—but they are more centered to French researchers. We never had the idea of
competing with other services.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The minute you speak of commercialization, it implies a marketplace in which
there is competition.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, but the goal was to be able to collect the money we were gaining—to
collect and to spend for ourselves. It was not so much to collect more and more money.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Not profit making.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: No. Our problem was that we were doing better services; we were selling more.
All this money was going in a hole without end, which was called the Ministry of Finance. We
never saw the results of our work. What we wanted—and what the CNRS has accepted—is, if
we have more money, we can do better. We didn’t want to ask for more money, but we did
want to do more services. That was the first goal. It was not so much to try to compete with
Chemical Abstracts or whoever else. That was not the goal.
Don’t forget, it’s a public administration. There were philosophical problems with the
British Library at the time. We sometimes thought that they were doing things that were not
very polite or not very good.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yes, they were very commercially-oriented.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But it was never at a personal level. We always had excellent relations with
people like Brian Lang, David Russon, and Maurice Line. We tried even to have an agreement
so that we abandoned the periodicals from which we sold very few articles. But, of course,
competition was always in the air.
Being a public administration, our goal was not to compete with other public
administrations. We wanted to be recognized at the European level as a partner. We succeeded
in doing that. CDST was never recognized apart from Bulletin Signalétique. INIST was
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|28}}
 

recognized, not only here, but we had visitors from China, Japan, and all over Europe. Big
groups of people were coming to see what we were doing. But we never tried to say we were
better than the English, Germans, or whoever.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The British Library thing interested me because there’s no question that when the
National Lending Library for Science and Technology was set up, they developed a very
commercial outlook. They were interested in making money.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes, I have visited them.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: And they do make millions of pounds. I was interested that you were saying that
during the move to Nancy, there were four thousand copies of articles being copied a day at that
time. Which is, again, the sort of thing that the British Library was, you know, seeing as—
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: They were doing maybe ten thousand requests a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: —I wondered to what extent the development of their service actually impinged
on yours.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It didn’t. They were too expensive.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Yours was oriented mostly towards people in France?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: For people in France and all over the world. Because we had periodicals that
some people didn’t have. I don’t know where the users were coming from. Also, the British
Library, at that time, was always very complicated with their coupons, et cetera. But, in fact, we
established the same thing. Now, it’s easier with credit cards but, at one time, we couldn’t
accommodate credit cards.
For two years almost, the center never stopped working. That was a burden. That was
very difficult. I worked thirteen or fourteen hours a day.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: I can believe it.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|29}}
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: But we were lucky. We were like pioneers. I had a group of people that didn’t
count their time. It was really a good group of people. My deputy, in fact, was the latest
director of CDSH. She became the chief of INIST human sciences. It worked very well
because we had been working together for twenty-five years. She was a good friend of mine,
and she played the game.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The section concerned with the human sciences stayed in Paris?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It stayed a little bit longer, and then they moved. Yes.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: So they’re all in Nancy now?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: Yes. Recruiting staff, continuing to work, and installing ourselves in a building
of a new conception from Jean Nouvel is not so easy. Jean Nouvel is an architect with ideas—
you have seen his futuristic buildings. It is not so easy to work in a futurist building. Have you
seen the corridors in the library?
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Oh, yes. It looks fascinating, in terms of design, but I wonder what it would be
like to work in it. What was in this area below?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: That was a computer service.
[END OF TAPE, SIDE 4]
[END OF INTERVIEW]
{{Article body/End}}

[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Carrière à l'INIST]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organizations

2021-04-26T08:46:41Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* The International Federation of Library Associations and Institutions (IFLA) */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Conversation on Assorted Organizations==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|14}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Discussions about Euronet-Diane [Direct Information Access Network for Europe] began in the early 1970s, too, I think.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It began after the resolution of the Council of Ministers in 1971 to create the European network. There was a committee, Comité Internationale pour la Documentation Scientifique et Technique,{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|15}} CIDST. We had a meeting of this committee almost every week. I was one of the French representatives; Jacques Michel was the other one. First, it was Jacques Delors; and then Jacques Michel. We tried to prepare a European information network. Then there were a lot of groups in every field—in medicine, in metallurgy, with Georges Anderla, who was the director at that time. I still see him.

[END OF TAPE, SIDE 2]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We were trying to implement this European network at a political level to create relationships between the countries. This was for the countries to organize and to cooperate better in different fields, and see if we could exchange information, set up databases, and control what the commission was doing. In fact, they were working in medicine, agriculture, and metallurgy. They took a lot of time. I think we have set up a kind of common European atmosphere to do that. But it was really political.

:We were not doing practical things; we were just discussing at political levels what the commission was trying to do. We were also working with automatic translations. An American system was implemented in the commission and we tried to adapt it. I don’t think we have achieved anything important, apart from the creation of this European group.
{{Article body/End}}
===ICSU AB’s collaborations with international organizations===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were also involved with the ICSU AB early on. Have you continued to be involved?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I am an honorary fellow, but I don’t go to the meetings very much anymore. [laughter] I have left the ICSU AB, more or less. I still attended some NFAIS [National Federation of Abstracting and Indexing Societies] meetings, but more to meet old friends like Ed Kennedy and Dale [B. Baker] and so on. This year, in fact, I didn’t go because I was ill.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:So, tell me your impressions of ICSU AB and what it’s been able to achieve. Is it just essentially a forum for discussion and debate?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. At the beginning, ICSU AB was a family, and in fact, it still is. Don’t forget, in the 1960s, there were very few scientific information centers. We were getting together maybe ten or fifteen people. We were the pioneers, people like Dale Baker and Phyllis Parkins. Wiederman from Germany. Sorokin from Russia. We were all trying to have the world recognize that scientific information is something; it’s a profession, it’s work, it’s a job. We did that quite successfully all together because we really were like a family, and we discussed everything. There was no competition. The competition started maybe a little bit later. My Miles-Conrad lecture at NFAIS gives the atmosphere of the thinking at that time (4).
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|16}}
:But, in fact, I believe that the ICSU AB created the profession. We created the profession from scientists. That was the goal. Nobody was a librarian. We were all scientists. We wanted to recognize that to process science one needed to be more than a librarian. The users are not the normal users of a library. They’ll ask you more. That was the main goal at the beginning. After that, we said, “How can we work together to make things better for our users?”

:Then the difficulties started. How could you work with the Russians, with the Japanese? We were each using our own language. The French researchers didn’t know enough English. Researchers in physics, in chemistry, can use English, but go to medicine and just forget it. Like the Medline Database—I remember, I brought home research in Medline to my husband. He was a scientist, a politician doing political science. He would say, “What is this garbage? What do you want me to do with it?” I left it on the top of our cupboard, and during six months, he never touched it. Never. He said, “Bring me in some information that I can read.” That was what most of the users were doing at that time. Now, it has changed with the Internet, et cetera.

:You have to translate, also, for political reasons. The French basically didn’t want information in another language. But we had been working on periodicals, to give information to each other on periodicals issued in our countries. We had been doing a lot of work on automatic indexing and even manual indexing to try to set up type indexes so that the automatic indexing could be easier. Then the ICSU AB got a little sleepy.

:When I came from New York, eleven years after the UN [United Nations], I, of course, came back to the ICSU AB. I shook them up a little bit. I said, “Look, people, what have you done in ten years?” There were no changes. It was the same story and with the same talks, et cetera, for ten years. They recognized that more or less it was the same. But then, with the new people coming, the only problem I saw with ICSU AB—and, then, Marthe [Orfus], the secretary, was going to go, and someone else was going to take over the ''secretariat'' (office of the secretary)—maybe Barry Mahon. He was one of the candidates on the short list. If the secretariat goes to an American, then why have ICSU AB in any place? Let’s decide that NFAIS would be international. Anyway, this guy from INSPEC—I can’t remember the name— the young guy you saw in the picture, the blond, and myself, we were always invited to NFAIS. I am French; he was British; NFAIS is American.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When you look at the lists of the organizations at the meetings of NFAIS, most of
the European services are present.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, but that was not the case before. Then we wondered why to keep both. Of
course, ICSU AB was always an opportunity for the Chinese, the Taiwanese, the Japanese, and
the Russians to be in an international organization. Also, the ICSU proximity is very important
because the ICSU AB was a part of ICSU for a very long time. Now, they want to put it
together again.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|17}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When did they come apart? Why was ICSTI [International Council of Scientific and Technical Information] set up?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Because they considered that, they wanted not to have this very heavy shape of ICSU, to have commercial organizations as members. The ICSU was not a scientific organization with only scientists as members. For example, Elsevier [Inc.] couldn’t be a member of ICSU AB and of ICSU. They were commercial. Also, because at that time, the secretary general of ICSU AB wanted to be more independent. She didn’t want to have people telling her what to do. Of course, the members of ICSU AB said, “All right, let’s go; let’s do it separately.”
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Do you think, now, there is a move back to ICSU?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:This is what I was told. I saw the announcement for the job. They want to keep their relations with ICSU.
{{Article body/End}}

===UNESCO, Programme général d'information===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:It’s interesting, this process of moving away and moving back. You described it in INIST, itself. Now, ICSU AB, and, of course, UNESCO PGI [United Nations Education, Scientific, and Cultural Organization’s Programme Générale d’Information] are being re-conceptualized, I understand.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Well, now, we’re writing a new program completely. We have done information for all programs. Now it’s on the executive committee, and then it will go to the general conference. Hopefully, before the end of the year, our new program will be adopted. I am on the chair of that so I have been working very hard. [laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Can you tell me a little about the nature of the changes that are being suggested?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:To go a little bit broader, not to focus on small things. To change the focus to new technologies and to try to put the new technology in an international context for developing countries. Let’s say, the influence of information highways on the information world—the main goal is to move from the traditional information that exists in the older places to transferring information using new technologies. Of course, there are a lot of details there. But if you want to have a new program, you go to the site, to the World Wide Web of UNESCO, and you can have it. You have the text of the new program.
{{Article body/End}}

===Federation for Information and Documentation (FID)===
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|18}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other organization I’m wondering about is FID [Federation for Information and Documentation]. I suppose the parallel organization is IFLA [International Federation of Library Associations] in the library world. Could you speak about your experiences while participating in these organizations?

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I was a member of FID many years ago, and I don’t think it had an important role in the past. Mostly because of the impact of the Russians. They were too static. I can say that in Russian, myself! [laughter] The Russians wanted to have a kind of forum for the outside world. They were doing certification, et cetera. I don’t know what they are doing now. Of course, with Martha Stone, the new director, they could move somewhere. But very often, they had very bad directors. You know, there was a Canadian at one time who was just a disaster. I don’t remember his name. He was terrible. He didn’t do anything. Martha Stone wants to do things. But, apart from the manifesto, they wrote lately, et cetera, I don’t see what they are doing. I don’t think they have an impact on the real world of information or people really working on information. Particularly because their representation is national. Nobody wanted the countries to go. In France, nobody wanted to go to FID. They said, “We don’t have money to spend for stupid things.”
:IFLA is different because IFLA is focused. IFLA is really focused on libraries. The libraries recognize themselves in IFLA. I don’t know who recognizes itself in FID. That is a problem with FID. I don’t know if they are going to continue or not. I just don’t know.

:I am a member of their publications board, but they never ask me anything. I just have my name on the publication. I once reviewed an article and suggested that they throw it away. Maybe that was why they didn’t ask me anymore. [laughter] I have worked with FID as the French representative and presented during some years, but we didn’t do anything. We were going to the meetings; that’s all. No real work. Martha is very good. Maybe she could do something, I don’t know. But it’s not so easy. You have to move people, and you have to know who to move. I don’t know any important people in FID. Nobody important that is visible in the information scene.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:In fact, some of the sorts of things that FID might well have done were probably taken over and done better by ICSU AB, and now ICSTI with its broad representation.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I’m not sure they’re interested in the types of things that FID is doing. The force and strength of ICSU AB, is that the directors who attend the meetings are the responsible people. Then, at the meeting, they can say, “I will,” or “I won’t.” They are not going to say, “I have to tell it to my government, to my country,” et cetera. I remember Dale Baker saying, “Oh, no. We can’t!” [laughter] But we knew that if he said he’d do it; he’d do it. We had the responsibility of what we were saying, as well as we were doing. That has made ICSU AB really move. This is still the case. It is very important.

{{Article body/End}}
===The International Federation of Library Associations and Institutions (IFLA)===
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|19}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Many of the major positions in IFLA are held by people who actually have authority to do things, too. That’s an interesting point.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:There are databases available in Germany through the German network. They are available online through Questel, an international host. This was available in 1997. I have been working lately with the European commission on a European project to create coordination between the existing host computers, Questel, DIMDI, a Nordic host computer, a Swedish one, and one other. This is to create the PASCAL bridges so that the user of DIMDI can access PASCAL from the databases they don’t have. DIMDI has medicine, but if the databases didn’t have it, they could access Questel with one simple password. They want more; they want to putit on the internet just like that, without the host computer. I don’t know.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other part of making FRANCIS and PASCAL widely available is overcoming the hegemony of the English.

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:How could you overcome the hegemony of the English? That’s absolutely stupid. Two-thirds of the publications are in English. Let’s say, two-thirds of the publications that count in the scientific world. But what do you want to do—translate them into French?
:Look, I am for defending French. I don’t like when you are at an international meeting when you have translation into English from French in the country. I always use French. I think it’s normal. If we are in France, if there are translation services provided, I suppose they have been provided for a reason. You can always express yourself much better in your own language than in another language. I think it’s stupid for this snobbish attitude to speak English to continue. But the reality is reality. The English word in information is the most important word. That’s it. Why fight what exists? I don’t think it’s bad.
:It’s not as if FRANCIS and PASCAL will be on the Internet and then English will not be hegemonic. We would simply have a little bit more information in French, which could be all right. But, anyway, if you go to the INIST site, you can have whatever you want.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Is the suggestion that it should be freely available?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. Again, I don’t know these people. I know only Jacques Le Maguer. I don’t know the others. I never heard about them.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|20}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Well, I thought this was a very strange article. It seemed to be pushing a particular point of view, very much against the idea that you spoke of, about the political move to regionalization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The only guy who knows anything about that is Jacques Le Maguer. From what I see, he now is working with L’Institut d’histoire du Temps Present. He has probably initiated that. Which, in fact, is not a bad idea. Why not? But I think they also don’t know what they are talking about. They have taken from papers some information—some good, some not. Idon’t know.

:I would be very interested to know if my former deputy Francine Gourd read that—she is probably retired now. But she was still working in 1997. She may have seen that.
{{Article body/End}}
[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organisations]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organizations

2021-04-26T08:45:59Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* The International Federation of Library Associations and Institutions (IFLA) */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Conversation on Assorted Organizations==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|14}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Discussions about Euronet-Diane [Direct Information Access Network for Europe] began in the early 1970s, too, I think.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It began after the resolution of the Council of Ministers in 1971 to create the European network. There was a committee, Comité Internationale pour la Documentation Scientifique et Technique,{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|15}} CIDST. We had a meeting of this committee almost every week. I was one of the French representatives; Jacques Michel was the other one. First, it was Jacques Delors; and then Jacques Michel. We tried to prepare a European information network. Then there were a lot of groups in every field—in medicine, in metallurgy, with Georges Anderla, who was the director at that time. I still see him.

[END OF TAPE, SIDE 2]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We were trying to implement this European network at a political level to create relationships between the countries. This was for the countries to organize and to cooperate better in different fields, and see if we could exchange information, set up databases, and control what the commission was doing. In fact, they were working in medicine, agriculture, and metallurgy. They took a lot of time. I think we have set up a kind of common European atmosphere to do that. But it was really political.

:We were not doing practical things; we were just discussing at political levels what the commission was trying to do. We were also working with automatic translations. An American system was implemented in the commission and we tried to adapt it. I don’t think we have achieved anything important, apart from the creation of this European group.
{{Article body/End}}
===ICSU AB’s collaborations with international organizations===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were also involved with the ICSU AB early on. Have you continued to be involved?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I am an honorary fellow, but I don’t go to the meetings very much anymore. [laughter] I have left the ICSU AB, more or less. I still attended some NFAIS [National Federation of Abstracting and Indexing Societies] meetings, but more to meet old friends like Ed Kennedy and Dale [B. Baker] and so on. This year, in fact, I didn’t go because I was ill.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:So, tell me your impressions of ICSU AB and what it’s been able to achieve. Is it just essentially a forum for discussion and debate?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. At the beginning, ICSU AB was a family, and in fact, it still is. Don’t forget, in the 1960s, there were very few scientific information centers. We were getting together maybe ten or fifteen people. We were the pioneers, people like Dale Baker and Phyllis Parkins. Wiederman from Germany. Sorokin from Russia. We were all trying to have the world recognize that scientific information is something; it’s a profession, it’s work, it’s a job. We did that quite successfully all together because we really were like a family, and we discussed everything. There was no competition. The competition started maybe a little bit later. My Miles-Conrad lecture at NFAIS gives the atmosphere of the thinking at that time (4).
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|16}}
:But, in fact, I believe that the ICSU AB created the profession. We created the profession from scientists. That was the goal. Nobody was a librarian. We were all scientists. We wanted to recognize that to process science one needed to be more than a librarian. The users are not the normal users of a library. They’ll ask you more. That was the main goal at the beginning. After that, we said, “How can we work together to make things better for our users?”

:Then the difficulties started. How could you work with the Russians, with the Japanese? We were each using our own language. The French researchers didn’t know enough English. Researchers in physics, in chemistry, can use English, but go to medicine and just forget it. Like the Medline Database—I remember, I brought home research in Medline to my husband. He was a scientist, a politician doing political science. He would say, “What is this garbage? What do you want me to do with it?” I left it on the top of our cupboard, and during six months, he never touched it. Never. He said, “Bring me in some information that I can read.” That was what most of the users were doing at that time. Now, it has changed with the Internet, et cetera.

:You have to translate, also, for political reasons. The French basically didn’t want information in another language. But we had been working on periodicals, to give information to each other on periodicals issued in our countries. We had been doing a lot of work on automatic indexing and even manual indexing to try to set up type indexes so that the automatic indexing could be easier. Then the ICSU AB got a little sleepy.

:When I came from New York, eleven years after the UN [United Nations], I, of course, came back to the ICSU AB. I shook them up a little bit. I said, “Look, people, what have you done in ten years?” There were no changes. It was the same story and with the same talks, et cetera, for ten years. They recognized that more or less it was the same. But then, with the new people coming, the only problem I saw with ICSU AB—and, then, Marthe [Orfus], the secretary, was going to go, and someone else was going to take over the ''secretariat'' (office of the secretary)—maybe Barry Mahon. He was one of the candidates on the short list. If the secretariat goes to an American, then why have ICSU AB in any place? Let’s decide that NFAIS would be international. Anyway, this guy from INSPEC—I can’t remember the name— the young guy you saw in the picture, the blond, and myself, we were always invited to NFAIS. I am French; he was British; NFAIS is American.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When you look at the lists of the organizations at the meetings of NFAIS, most of
the European services are present.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, but that was not the case before. Then we wondered why to keep both. Of
course, ICSU AB was always an opportunity for the Chinese, the Taiwanese, the Japanese, and
the Russians to be in an international organization. Also, the ICSU proximity is very important
because the ICSU AB was a part of ICSU for a very long time. Now, they want to put it
together again.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|17}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When did they come apart? Why was ICSTI [International Council of Scientific and Technical Information] set up?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Because they considered that, they wanted not to have this very heavy shape of ICSU, to have commercial organizations as members. The ICSU was not a scientific organization with only scientists as members. For example, Elsevier [Inc.] couldn’t be a member of ICSU AB and of ICSU. They were commercial. Also, because at that time, the secretary general of ICSU AB wanted to be more independent. She didn’t want to have people telling her what to do. Of course, the members of ICSU AB said, “All right, let’s go; let’s do it separately.”
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Do you think, now, there is a move back to ICSU?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:This is what I was told. I saw the announcement for the job. They want to keep their relations with ICSU.
{{Article body/End}}

===UNESCO, Programme général d'information===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:It’s interesting, this process of moving away and moving back. You described it in INIST, itself. Now, ICSU AB, and, of course, UNESCO PGI [United Nations Education, Scientific, and Cultural Organization’s Programme Générale d’Information] are being re-conceptualized, I understand.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Well, now, we’re writing a new program completely. We have done information for all programs. Now it’s on the executive committee, and then it will go to the general conference. Hopefully, before the end of the year, our new program will be adopted. I am on the chair of that so I have been working very hard. [laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Can you tell me a little about the nature of the changes that are being suggested?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:To go a little bit broader, not to focus on small things. To change the focus to new technologies and to try to put the new technology in an international context for developing countries. Let’s say, the influence of information highways on the information world—the main goal is to move from the traditional information that exists in the older places to transferring information using new technologies. Of course, there are a lot of details there. But if you want to have a new program, you go to the site, to the World Wide Web of UNESCO, and you can have it. You have the text of the new program.
{{Article body/End}}

===Federation for Information and Documentation (FID)===
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|18}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other organization I’m wondering about is FID [Federation for Information and Documentation]. I suppose the parallel organization is IFLA [International Federation of Library Associations] in the library world. Could you speak about your experiences while participating in these organizations?

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I was a member of FID many years ago, and I don’t think it had an important role in the past. Mostly because of the impact of the Russians. They were too static. I can say that in Russian, myself! [laughter] The Russians wanted to have a kind of forum for the outside world. They were doing certification, et cetera. I don’t know what they are doing now. Of course, with Martha Stone, the new director, they could move somewhere. But very often, they had very bad directors. You know, there was a Canadian at one time who was just a disaster. I don’t remember his name. He was terrible. He didn’t do anything. Martha Stone wants to do things. But, apart from the manifesto, they wrote lately, et cetera, I don’t see what they are doing. I don’t think they have an impact on the real world of information or people really working on information. Particularly because their representation is national. Nobody wanted the countries to go. In France, nobody wanted to go to FID. They said, “We don’t have money to spend for stupid things.”
:IFLA is different because IFLA is focused. IFLA is really focused on libraries. The libraries recognize themselves in IFLA. I don’t know who recognizes itself in FID. That is a problem with FID. I don’t know if they are going to continue or not. I just don’t know.

:I am a member of their publications board, but they never ask me anything. I just have my name on the publication. I once reviewed an article and suggested that they throw it away. Maybe that was why they didn’t ask me anymore. [laughter] I have worked with FID as the French representative and presented during some years, but we didn’t do anything. We were going to the meetings; that’s all. No real work. Martha is very good. Maybe she could do something, I don’t know. But it’s not so easy. You have to move people, and you have to know who to move. I don’t know any important people in FID. Nobody important that is visible in the information scene.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:In fact, some of the sorts of things that FID might well have done were probably taken over and done better by ICSU AB, and now ICSTI with its broad representation.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I’m not sure they’re interested in the types of things that FID is doing. The force and strength of ICSU AB, is that the directors who attend the meetings are the responsible people. Then, at the meeting, they can say, “I will,” or “I won’t.” They are not going to say, “I have to tell it to my government, to my country,” et cetera. I remember Dale Baker saying, “Oh, no. We can’t!” [laughter] But we knew that if he said he’d do it; he’d do it. We had the responsibility of what we were saying, as well as we were doing. That has made ICSU AB really move. This is still the case. It is very important.

{{Article body/End}}
===The International Federation of Library Associations and Institutions (IFLA)===
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|19}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Many of the major positions in IFLA are held by people who actually have authority to do things, too. That’s an interesting point.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:There are databases available in Germany through the German network. They are available online through Questel, an international host. This was available in 1997. I have been working lately with the European commission on a European project to create coordination between the existing host computers, Questel, DIMDI, a Nordic host computer, a Swedish one, and one other. This is to create the PASCAL bridges so that the user of DIMDI can access PASCAL from the databases they don’t have. DIMDI has medicine, but if the databases didn’t have it, they could access Questel with one simple password. They want more; they want to putit on the internet just like that, without the host computer. I don’t know.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other part of making FRANCIS and PASCAL widely available is overcoming the hegemony of the English.

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:How could you overcome the hegemony of the English? That’s absolutely stupid. Two-thirds of the publications are in English. Let’s say, two-thirds of the publications that count in the scientific world. But what do you want to do—translate them into French?
:Look, I am for defending French. I don’t like when you are at an international meeting when you have translation into English from French in the country. I always use French. I think it’s normal. If we are in France, if there are translation services provided, I suppose they have been provided for a reason. You can always express yourself much better in your own language than in another language. I think it’s stupid for this snobbish attitude to speak English to continue. But the reality is reality. The English word in information is the most important word. That’s it. Why fight what exists? I don’t think it’s bad.
:It’s not as if FRANCIS and PASCAL will be on the Internet and then English will not be hegemonic. We would simply have a little bit more information in French, which could be all right. But, anyway, if you go to the INIST site, you can have whatever you want.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Is the suggestion that it should be freely available?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. Again, I don’t know these people. I know only Jacques Le Maguer. I don’t know the others. I never heard about them.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Well, I thought this was a very strange article. It seemed to be pushing a particular point of view, very much against the idea that you spoke of, about the political move to regionalization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The only guy who knows anything about that is Jacques Le Maguer. From what I see, he now is working with L’Institut d’histoire du Temps Present. He has probably initiated that. Which, in fact, is not a bad idea. Why not? But I think they also don’t know what they are talking about. They have taken from papers some information—some good, some not. Idon’t know.

:I would be very interested to know if my former deputy Francine Gourd read that—she is probably retired now. But she was still working in 1997. She may have seen that.
{{Article body/End}}
[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organisations]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organizations

2021-04-26T08:40:03Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* Conversation on Assorted Organizations */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Conversation on Assorted Organizations==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|14}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Discussions about Euronet-Diane [Direct Information Access Network for Europe] began in the early 1970s, too, I think.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It began after the resolution of the Council of Ministers in 1971 to create the European network. There was a committee, Comité Internationale pour la Documentation Scientifique et Technique,{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|15}} CIDST. We had a meeting of this committee almost every week. I was one of the French representatives; Jacques Michel was the other one. First, it was Jacques Delors; and then Jacques Michel. We tried to prepare a European information network. Then there were a lot of groups in every field—in medicine, in metallurgy, with Georges Anderla, who was the director at that time. I still see him.

[END OF TAPE, SIDE 2]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We were trying to implement this European network at a political level to create relationships between the countries. This was for the countries to organize and to cooperate better in different fields, and see if we could exchange information, set up databases, and control what the commission was doing. In fact, they were working in medicine, agriculture, and metallurgy. They took a lot of time. I think we have set up a kind of common European atmosphere to do that. But it was really political.

:We were not doing practical things; we were just discussing at political levels what the commission was trying to do. We were also working with automatic translations. An American system was implemented in the commission and we tried to adapt it. I don’t think we have achieved anything important, apart from the creation of this European group.
{{Article body/End}}
===ICSU AB’s collaborations with international organizations===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were also involved with the ICSU AB early on. Have you continued to be involved?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I am an honorary fellow, but I don’t go to the meetings very much anymore. [laughter] I have left the ICSU AB, more or less. I still attended some NFAIS [National Federation of Abstracting and Indexing Societies] meetings, but more to meet old friends like Ed Kennedy and Dale [B. Baker] and so on. This year, in fact, I didn’t go because I was ill.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:So, tell me your impressions of ICSU AB and what it’s been able to achieve. Is it just essentially a forum for discussion and debate?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. At the beginning, ICSU AB was a family, and in fact, it still is. Don’t forget, in the 1960s, there were very few scientific information centers. We were getting together maybe ten or fifteen people. We were the pioneers, people like Dale Baker and Phyllis Parkins. Wiederman from Germany. Sorokin from Russia. We were all trying to have the world recognize that scientific information is something; it’s a profession, it’s work, it’s a job. We did that quite successfully all together because we really were like a family, and we discussed everything. There was no competition. The competition started maybe a little bit later. My Miles-Conrad lecture at NFAIS gives the atmosphere of the thinking at that time (4).
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|16}}
:But, in fact, I believe that the ICSU AB created the profession. We created the profession from scientists. That was the goal. Nobody was a librarian. We were all scientists. We wanted to recognize that to process science one needed to be more than a librarian. The users are not the normal users of a library. They’ll ask you more. That was the main goal at the beginning. After that, we said, “How can we work together to make things better for our users?”

:Then the difficulties started. How could you work with the Russians, with the Japanese? We were each using our own language. The French researchers didn’t know enough English. Researchers in physics, in chemistry, can use English, but go to medicine and just forget it. Like the Medline Database—I remember, I brought home research in Medline to my husband. He was a scientist, a politician doing political science. He would say, “What is this garbage? What do you want me to do with it?” I left it on the top of our cupboard, and during six months, he never touched it. Never. He said, “Bring me in some information that I can read.” That was what most of the users were doing at that time. Now, it has changed with the Internet, et cetera.

:You have to translate, also, for political reasons. The French basically didn’t want information in another language. But we had been working on periodicals, to give information to each other on periodicals issued in our countries. We had been doing a lot of work on automatic indexing and even manual indexing to try to set up type indexes so that the automatic indexing could be easier. Then the ICSU AB got a little sleepy.

:When I came from New York, eleven years after the UN [United Nations], I, of course, came back to the ICSU AB. I shook them up a little bit. I said, “Look, people, what have you done in ten years?” There were no changes. It was the same story and with the same talks, et cetera, for ten years. They recognized that more or less it was the same. But then, with the new people coming, the only problem I saw with ICSU AB—and, then, Marthe [Orfus], the secretary, was going to go, and someone else was going to take over the ''secretariat'' (office of the secretary)—maybe Barry Mahon. He was one of the candidates on the short list. If the secretariat goes to an American, then why have ICSU AB in any place? Let’s decide that NFAIS would be international. Anyway, this guy from INSPEC—I can’t remember the name— the young guy you saw in the picture, the blond, and myself, we were always invited to NFAIS. I am French; he was British; NFAIS is American.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When you look at the lists of the organizations at the meetings of NFAIS, most of
the European services are present.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, but that was not the case before. Then we wondered why to keep both. Of
course, ICSU AB was always an opportunity for the Chinese, the Taiwanese, the Japanese, and
the Russians to be in an international organization. Also, the ICSU proximity is very important
because the ICSU AB was a part of ICSU for a very long time. Now, they want to put it
together again.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|17}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When did they come apart? Why was ICSTI [International Council of Scientific and Technical Information] set up?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Because they considered that, they wanted not to have this very heavy shape of ICSU, to have commercial organizations as members. The ICSU was not a scientific organization with only scientists as members. For example, Elsevier [Inc.] couldn’t be a member of ICSU AB and of ICSU. They were commercial. Also, because at that time, the secretary general of ICSU AB wanted to be more independent. She didn’t want to have people telling her what to do. Of course, the members of ICSU AB said, “All right, let’s go; let’s do it separately.”
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Do you think, now, there is a move back to ICSU?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:This is what I was told. I saw the announcement for the job. They want to keep their relations with ICSU.
{{Article body/End}}

===UNESCO, Programme général d'information===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:It’s interesting, this process of moving away and moving back. You described it in INIST, itself. Now, ICSU AB, and, of course, UNESCO PGI [United Nations Education, Scientific, and Cultural Organization’s Programme Générale d’Information] are being re-conceptualized, I understand.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Well, now, we’re writing a new program completely. We have done information for all programs. Now it’s on the executive committee, and then it will go to the general conference. Hopefully, before the end of the year, our new program will be adopted. I am on the chair of that so I have been working very hard. [laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Can you tell me a little about the nature of the changes that are being suggested?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:To go a little bit broader, not to focus on small things. To change the focus to new technologies and to try to put the new technology in an international context for developing countries. Let’s say, the influence of information highways on the information world—the main goal is to move from the traditional information that exists in the older places to transferring information using new technologies. Of course, there are a lot of details there. But if you want to have a new program, you go to the site, to the World Wide Web of UNESCO, and you can have it. You have the text of the new program.
{{Article body/End}}

===Federation for Information and Documentation (FID)===
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|18}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other organization I’m wondering about is FID [Federation for Information and Documentation]. I suppose the parallel organization is IFLA [International Federation of Library Associations] in the library world. Could you speak about your experiences while participating in these organizations?

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I was a member of FID many years ago, and I don’t think it had an important role in the past. Mostly because of the impact of the Russians. They were too static. I can say that in Russian, myself! [laughter] The Russians wanted to have a kind of forum for the outside world. They were doing certification, et cetera. I don’t know what they are doing now. Of course, with Martha Stone, the new director, they could move somewhere. But very often, they had very bad directors. You know, there was a Canadian at one time who was just a disaster. I don’t remember his name. He was terrible. He didn’t do anything. Martha Stone wants to do things. But, apart from the manifesto, they wrote lately, et cetera, I don’t see what they are doing. I don’t think they have an impact on the real world of information or people really working on information. Particularly because their representation is national. Nobody wanted the countries to go. In France, nobody wanted to go to FID. They said, “We don’t have money to spend for stupid things.”
:IFLA is different because IFLA is focused. IFLA is really focused on libraries. The libraries recognize themselves in IFLA. I don’t know who recognizes itself in FID. That is a problem with FID. I don’t know if they are going to continue or not. I just don’t know.

:I am a member of their publications board, but they never ask me anything. I just have my name on the publication. I once reviewed an article and suggested that they throw it away. Maybe that was why they didn’t ask me anymore. [laughter] I have worked with FID as the French representative and presented during some years, but we didn’t do anything. We were going to the meetings; that’s all. No real work. Martha is very good. Maybe she could do something, I don’t know. But it’s not so easy. You have to move people, and you have to know who to move. I don’t know any important people in FID. Nobody important that is visible in the information scene.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:In fact, some of the sorts of things that FID might well have done were probably taken over and done better by ICSU AB, and now ICSTI with its broad representation.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I’m not sure they’re interested in the types of things that FID is doing. The force and strength of ICSU AB, is that the directors who attend the meetings are the responsible people. Then, at the meeting, they can say, “I will,” or “I won’t.” They are not going to say, “I have to tell it to my government, to my country,” et cetera. I remember Dale Baker saying, “Oh, no. We can’t!” [laughter] But we knew that if he said he’d do it; he’d do it. We had the responsibility of what we were saying, as well as we were doing. That has made ICSU AB really move. This is still the case. It is very important.

{{Article body/End}}
===The International Federation of Library Associations and Institutions (IFLA)===
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|19}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Many of the major positions in IFLA are held by people who actually have authority to do things, too. That’s an interesting point.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:There are databases available in Germany through the German network. They
are available online through Questel, an international host. This was available in 1997. I have
been working lately with the European commission on a European project to create coordination
between the existing host computers, Questel, DIMDI, a Nordic host computer, a Swedish one,
and one other. This is to create the PASCAL bridges so that the user of DIMDI can access
PASCAL from the databases they don’t have. DIMDI has medicine, but if the databases didn’t
have it, they could access Questel with one simple password. They want more; they want to put
it on the internet just like that, without the host computer. I don’t know.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other part of making FRANCIS and PASCAL widely available is
overcoming the hegemony of the English.

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:How could you overcome the hegemony of the English? That’s absolutely
stupid. Two-thirds of the publications are in English. Let’s say, two-thirds of the publications
that count in the scientific world. But what do you want to do—translate them into French?
Look, I am for defending French. I don’t like when you are at an international meeting when
you have translation into English from French in the country. I always use French. I think it’s
normal. If we are in France, if there are translation services provided, I suppose they have been
provided for a reason. You can always express yourself much better in your own language than
in another language. I think it’s stupid for this snobbish attitude to speak English to continue.
But the reality is reality. The English word in information is the most important word. That’s
it. Why fight what exists? I don’t think it’s bad.
It’s not as if FRANCIS and PASCAL will be on the Internet and then English will not be
hegemonic. We would simply have a little bit more information in French, which could be all
right. But, anyway, if you go to the INIST site, you can have whatever you want.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Is the suggestion that it should be freely available?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. Again, I don’t know these people. I know only Jacques Le Maguer. I
don’t know the others. I never heard about them.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Well, I thought this was a very strange article. It seemed to be pushing a
particular point of view, very much against the idea that you spoke of, about the political move
to regionalization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The only guy who knows anything about that is Jacques Le Maguer. From what
I see, he now is working with L’Institut d’histoire du Temps Present. He has probably initiated
that. Which, in fact, is not a bad idea. Why not? But I think they also don’t know what they
are talking about. They have taken from papers some information—some good, some not. I
don’t know.
I would be very interested to know if my former deputy Francine Gourd read that—she
is probably retired now. But she was still working in 1997. She may have seen that.
{{Article body/End}}
[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organisations]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organizations

2021-04-26T08:35:30Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* UNESCO, Programme général d'information */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Conversation on Assorted Organizations==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|14}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Discussions about Euronet-Diane [Direct Information Access Network for Europe] began in the early 1970s, too, I think.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It began after the resolution of the Council of Ministers in 1971 to create the European network. There was a committee, Comité Internationale pour la Documentation Scientifique et Technique,{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|15}} CIDST. We had a meeting of this committee almost every week. I was one of the French representatives; Jacques Michel was the other one. First, it was Jacques Delors; and then Jacques Michel. We tried to prepare a European information network. Then there were a lot of groups in every field—in medicine, in metallurgy, with Georges Anderla, who was the director at that time. I still see him.

[END OF TAPE, SIDE 2]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We were trying to implement this European network at a political level to create relationships between the countries. This was for the countries to organize and to cooperate better in different fields, and see if we could exchange information, set up databases, and control what the commission was doing. In fact, they were working in medicine, agriculture, and metallurgy. They took a lot of time. I think we have set up a kind of common European atmosphere to do that. But it was really political.

:We were not doing practical things; we were just discussing at political levels what the commission was trying to do. We were also working with automatic translations. An American system was implemented in the commission and we tried to adapt it. I don’t think we have achieved anything important, apart from the creation of this European group.
{{Article body/End}}
===ICSU AB’s collaborations with international organizations===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were also involved with the ICSU AB early on. Have you continued to be involved?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I am an honorary fellow, but I don’t go to the meetings very much anymore. [laughter] I have left the ICSU AB, more or less. I still attended some NFAIS [National Federation of Abstracting and Indexing Societies] meetings, but more to meet old friends like Ed Kennedy and Dale [B. Baker] and so on. This year, in fact, I didn’t go because I was ill.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:So, tell me your impressions of ICSU AB and what it’s been able to achieve. Is it just essentially a forum for discussion and debate?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. At the beginning, ICSU AB was a family, and in fact, it still is. Don’t forget, in the 1960s, there were very few scientific information centers. We were getting together maybe ten or fifteen people. We were the pioneers, people like Dale Baker and Phyllis Parkins. Wiederman from Germany. Sorokin from Russia. We were all trying to have the world recognize that scientific information is something; it’s a profession, it’s work, it’s a job. We did that quite successfully all together because we really were like a family, and we discussed everything. There was no competition. The competition started maybe a little bit later. My Miles-Conrad lecture at NFAIS gives the atmosphere of the thinking at that time (4).
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|16}}
:But, in fact, I believe that the ICSU AB created the profession. We created the profession from scientists. That was the goal. Nobody was a librarian. We were all scientists. We wanted to recognize that to process science one needed to be more than a librarian. The users are not the normal users of a library. They’ll ask you more. That was the main goal at the beginning. After that, we said, “How can we work together to make things better for our users?”

:Then the difficulties started. How could you work with the Russians, with the Japanese? We were each using our own language. The French researchers didn’t know enough English. Researchers in physics, in chemistry, can use English, but go to medicine and just forget it. Like the Medline Database—I remember, I brought home research in Medline to my husband. He was a scientist, a politician doing political science. He would say, “What is this garbage? What do you want me to do with it?” I left it on the top of our cupboard, and during six months, he never touched it. Never. He said, “Bring me in some information that I can read.” That was what most of the users were doing at that time. Now, it has changed with the Internet, et cetera.

:You have to translate, also, for political reasons. The French basically didn’t want information in another language. But we had been working on periodicals, to give information to each other on periodicals issued in our countries. We had been doing a lot of work on automatic indexing and even manual indexing to try to set up type indexes so that the automatic indexing could be easier. Then the ICSU AB got a little sleepy.

:When I came from New York, eleven years after the UN [United Nations], I, of course, came back to the ICSU AB. I shook them up a little bit. I said, “Look, people, what have you done in ten years?” There were no changes. It was the same story and with the same talks, et cetera, for ten years. They recognized that more or less it was the same. But then, with the new people coming, the only problem I saw with ICSU AB—and, then, Marthe [Orfus], the secretary, was going to go, and someone else was going to take over the ''secretariat'' (office of the secretary)—maybe Barry Mahon. He was one of the candidates on the short list. If the secretariat goes to an American, then why have ICSU AB in any place? Let’s decide that NFAIS would be international. Anyway, this guy from INSPEC—I can’t remember the name— the young guy you saw in the picture, the blond, and myself, we were always invited to NFAIS. I am French; he was British; NFAIS is American.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When you look at the lists of the organizations at the meetings of NFAIS, most of
the European services are present.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, but that was not the case before. Then we wondered why to keep both. Of
course, ICSU AB was always an opportunity for the Chinese, the Taiwanese, the Japanese, and
the Russians to be in an international organization. Also, the ICSU proximity is very important
because the ICSU AB was a part of ICSU for a very long time. Now, they want to put it
together again.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|17}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When did they come apart? Why was ICSTI [International Council of Scientific and Technical Information] set up?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Because they considered that, they wanted not to have this very heavy shape of ICSU, to have commercial organizations as members. The ICSU was not a scientific organization with only scientists as members. For example, Elsevier [Inc.] couldn’t be a member of ICSU AB and of ICSU. They were commercial. Also, because at that time, the secretary general of ICSU AB wanted to be more independent. She didn’t want to have people telling her what to do. Of course, the members of ICSU AB said, “All right, let’s go; let’s do it separately.”
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Do you think, now, there is a move back to ICSU?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:This is what I was told. I saw the announcement for the job. They want to keep their relations with ICSU.
{{Article body/End}}

===UNESCO, Programme général d'information===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:It’s interesting, this process of moving away and moving back. You described it in INIST, itself. Now, ICSU AB, and, of course, UNESCO PGI [United Nations Education, Scientific, and Cultural Organization’s Programme Générale d’Information] are being re-conceptualized, I understand.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Well, now, we’re writing a new program completely. We have done information for all programs. Now it’s on the executive committee, and then it will go to the general conference. Hopefully, before the end of the year, our new program will be adopted. I am on the chair of that so I have been working very hard. [laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Can you tell me a little about the nature of the changes that are being suggested?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:To go a little bit broader, not to focus on small things. To change the focus to new technologies and to try to put the new technology in an international context for developing countries. Let’s say, the influence of information highways on the information world—the main goal is to move from the traditional information that exists in the older places to transferring information using new technologies. Of course, there are a lot of details there. But if you want to have a new program, you go to the site, to the World Wide Web of UNESCO, and you can have it. You have the text of the new program.
{{Article body/End}}

===Federation for Information and Documentation (FID)===
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|18}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other organization I’m wondering about is FID [Federation for Information and Documentation]. I suppose the parallel organization is IFLA [International Federation of Library Associations] in the library world. Could you speak about your experiences while participating in these organizations?

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I was a member of FID many years ago, and I don’t think it had an important role in the past. Mostly because of the impact of the Russians. They were too static. I can say that in Russian, myself! [laughter] The Russians wanted to have a kind of forum for the outside world. They were doing certification, et cetera. I don’t know what they are doing now. Of course, with Martha Stone, the new director, they could move somewhere. But very often, they had very bad directors. You know, there was a Canadian at one time who was just a disaster. I don’t remember his name. He was terrible. He didn’t do anything. Martha Stone wants to do things. But, apart from the manifesto, they wrote lately, et cetera, I don’t see what they are doing. I don’t think they have an impact on the real world of information or people really working on information. Particularly because their representation is national. Nobody wanted the countries to go. In France, nobody wanted to go to FID. They said, “We don’t have money to spend for stupid things.”
:IFLA is different because IFLA is focused. IFLA is really focused on libraries. The libraries recognize themselves in IFLA. I don’t know who recognizes itself in FID. That is a problem with FID. I don’t know if they are going to continue or not. I just don’t know.

:I am a member of their publications board, but they never ask me anything. I just have my name on the publication. I once reviewed an article and suggested that they throw it away. Maybe that was why they didn’t ask me anymore. [laughter] I have worked with FID as the French representative and presented during some years, but we didn’t do anything. We were going to the meetings; that’s all. No real work. Martha is very good. Maybe she could do something, I don’t know. But it’s not so easy. You have to move people, and you have to know who to move. I don’t know any important people in FID. Nobody important that is visible in the information scene.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:In fact, some of the sorts of things that FID might well have done were probably taken over and done better by ICSU AB, and now ICSTI with its broad representation.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I’m not sure they’re interested in the types of things that FID is doing. The force and strength of ICSU AB, is that the directors who attend the meetings are the responsible people. Then, at the meeting, they can say, “I will,” or “I won’t.” They are not going to say, “I have to tell it to my government, to my country,” et cetera. I remember Dale Baker saying, “Oh, no. We can’t!” [laughter] But we knew that if he said he’d do it; he’d do it. We had the responsibility of what we were saying, as well as we were doing. That has made ICSU AB really move. This is still the case. It is very important.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|19}}
{{Article body/End}}
===The International Federation of Library Associations and Institutions (IFLA)===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Many of the major positions in IFLA are held by people who actually have authority to do things, too. That’s an interesting point.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:There are databases available in Germany through the German network. They
are available online through Questel, an international host. This was available in 1997. I have
been working lately with the European commission on a European project to create coordination
between the existing host computers, Questel, DIMDI, a Nordic host computer, a Swedish one,
and one other. This is to create the PASCAL bridges so that the user of DIMDI can access
PASCAL from the databases they don’t have. DIMDI has medicine, but if the databases didn’t
have it, they could access Questel with one simple password. They want more; they want to put
it on the internet just like that, without the host computer. I don’t know.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other part of making FRANCIS and PASCAL widely available is
overcoming the hegemony of the English.

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:How could you overcome the hegemony of the English? That’s absolutely
stupid. Two-thirds of the publications are in English. Let’s say, two-thirds of the publications
that count in the scientific world. But what do you want to do—translate them into French?
Look, I am for defending French. I don’t like when you are at an international meeting when
you have translation into English from French in the country. I always use French. I think it’s
normal. If we are in France, if there are translation services provided, I suppose they have been
provided for a reason. You can always express yourself much better in your own language than
in another language. I think it’s stupid for this snobbish attitude to speak English to continue.
But the reality is reality. The English word in information is the most important word. That’s
it. Why fight what exists? I don’t think it’s bad.
It’s not as if FRANCIS and PASCAL will be on the Internet and then English will not be
hegemonic. We would simply have a little bit more information in French, which could be all
right. But, anyway, if you go to the INIST site, you can have whatever you want.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Is the suggestion that it should be freely available?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. Again, I don’t know these people. I know only Jacques Le Maguer. I
don’t know the others. I never heard about them.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Well, I thought this was a very strange article. It seemed to be pushing a
particular point of view, very much against the idea that you spoke of, about the political move
to regionalization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The only guy who knows anything about that is Jacques Le Maguer. From what
I see, he now is working with L’Institut d’histoire du Temps Present. He has probably initiated
that. Which, in fact, is not a bad idea. Why not? But I think they also don’t know what they
are talking about. They have taken from papers some information—some good, some not. I
don’t know.
I would be very interested to know if my former deputy Francine Gourd read that—she
is probably retired now. But she was still working in 1997. She may have seen that.
{{Article body/End}}
[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organisations]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organizations

2021-04-26T08:34:54Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* UNESCO, Programme général d'information */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Conversation on Assorted Organizations==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|14}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Discussions about Euronet-Diane [Direct Information Access Network for Europe] began in the early 1970s, too, I think.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It began after the resolution of the Council of Ministers in 1971 to create the European network. There was a committee, Comité Internationale pour la Documentation Scientifique et Technique,{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|15}} CIDST. We had a meeting of this committee almost every week. I was one of the French representatives; Jacques Michel was the other one. First, it was Jacques Delors; and then Jacques Michel. We tried to prepare a European information network. Then there were a lot of groups in every field—in medicine, in metallurgy, with Georges Anderla, who was the director at that time. I still see him.

[END OF TAPE, SIDE 2]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We were trying to implement this European network at a political level to create relationships between the countries. This was for the countries to organize and to cooperate better in different fields, and see if we could exchange information, set up databases, and control what the commission was doing. In fact, they were working in medicine, agriculture, and metallurgy. They took a lot of time. I think we have set up a kind of common European atmosphere to do that. But it was really political.

:We were not doing practical things; we were just discussing at political levels what the commission was trying to do. We were also working with automatic translations. An American system was implemented in the commission and we tried to adapt it. I don’t think we have achieved anything important, apart from the creation of this European group.
{{Article body/End}}
===ICSU AB’s collaborations with international organizations===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were also involved with the ICSU AB early on. Have you continued to be involved?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I am an honorary fellow, but I don’t go to the meetings very much anymore. [laughter] I have left the ICSU AB, more or less. I still attended some NFAIS [National Federation of Abstracting and Indexing Societies] meetings, but more to meet old friends like Ed Kennedy and Dale [B. Baker] and so on. This year, in fact, I didn’t go because I was ill.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:So, tell me your impressions of ICSU AB and what it’s been able to achieve. Is it just essentially a forum for discussion and debate?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. At the beginning, ICSU AB was a family, and in fact, it still is. Don’t forget, in the 1960s, there were very few scientific information centers. We were getting together maybe ten or fifteen people. We were the pioneers, people like Dale Baker and Phyllis Parkins. Wiederman from Germany. Sorokin from Russia. We were all trying to have the world recognize that scientific information is something; it’s a profession, it’s work, it’s a job. We did that quite successfully all together because we really were like a family, and we discussed everything. There was no competition. The competition started maybe a little bit later. My Miles-Conrad lecture at NFAIS gives the atmosphere of the thinking at that time (4).
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|16}}
:But, in fact, I believe that the ICSU AB created the profession. We created the profession from scientists. That was the goal. Nobody was a librarian. We were all scientists. We wanted to recognize that to process science one needed to be more than a librarian. The users are not the normal users of a library. They’ll ask you more. That was the main goal at the beginning. After that, we said, “How can we work together to make things better for our users?”

:Then the difficulties started. How could you work with the Russians, with the Japanese? We were each using our own language. The French researchers didn’t know enough English. Researchers in physics, in chemistry, can use English, but go to medicine and just forget it. Like the Medline Database—I remember, I brought home research in Medline to my husband. He was a scientist, a politician doing political science. He would say, “What is this garbage? What do you want me to do with it?” I left it on the top of our cupboard, and during six months, he never touched it. Never. He said, “Bring me in some information that I can read.” That was what most of the users were doing at that time. Now, it has changed with the Internet, et cetera.

:You have to translate, also, for political reasons. The French basically didn’t want information in another language. But we had been working on periodicals, to give information to each other on periodicals issued in our countries. We had been doing a lot of work on automatic indexing and even manual indexing to try to set up type indexes so that the automatic indexing could be easier. Then the ICSU AB got a little sleepy.

:When I came from New York, eleven years after the UN [United Nations], I, of course, came back to the ICSU AB. I shook them up a little bit. I said, “Look, people, what have you done in ten years?” There were no changes. It was the same story and with the same talks, et cetera, for ten years. They recognized that more or less it was the same. But then, with the new people coming, the only problem I saw with ICSU AB—and, then, Marthe [Orfus], the secretary, was going to go, and someone else was going to take over the ''secretariat'' (office of the secretary)—maybe Barry Mahon. He was one of the candidates on the short list. If the secretariat goes to an American, then why have ICSU AB in any place? Let’s decide that NFAIS would be international. Anyway, this guy from INSPEC—I can’t remember the name— the young guy you saw in the picture, the blond, and myself, we were always invited to NFAIS. I am French; he was British; NFAIS is American.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When you look at the lists of the organizations at the meetings of NFAIS, most of
the European services are present.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, but that was not the case before. Then we wondered why to keep both. Of
course, ICSU AB was always an opportunity for the Chinese, the Taiwanese, the Japanese, and
the Russians to be in an international organization. Also, the ICSU proximity is very important
because the ICSU AB was a part of ICSU for a very long time. Now, they want to put it
together again.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|17}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When did they come apart? Why was ICSTI [International Council of Scientific and Technical Information] set up?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Because they considered that, they wanted not to have this very heavy shape of ICSU, to have commercial organizations as members. The ICSU was not a scientific organization with only scientists as members. For example, Elsevier [Inc.] couldn’t be a member of ICSU AB and of ICSU. They were commercial. Also, because at that time, the secretary general of ICSU AB wanted to be more independent. She didn’t want to have people telling her what to do. Of course, the members of ICSU AB said, “All right, let’s go; let’s do it separately.”
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Do you think, now, there is a move back to ICSU?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:This is what I was told. I saw the announcement for the job. They want to keep their relations with ICSU.
{{Article body/End}}

===UNESCO, Programme général d'information===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:It’s interesting, this process of moving away and moving back. You described it in INIST, itself. Now, ICSU AB, and, of course, UNESCO PGI [United Nations Education, Scientific, and Cultural Organization’s Programme Générale d’Information] are being re-conceptualized, I understand.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Well, now, we’re writing a new program completely. We have done information for all programs. Now it’s on the executive committee, and then it will go to the general conference. Hopefully, before the end of the year, our new program will be adopted. I am on the chair of that so I have been working very hard. [laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Can you tell me a little about the nature of the changes that are being suggested?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:To go a little bit broader, not to focus on small things. To change the focus to new technologies and to try to put the new technology in an international context for developing countries. Let’s say, the influence of information highways on the information world—the main goal is to move from the traditional information that exists in the older places to transferring
information using new technologies. Of course, there are a lot of details there. But if you want to have a new program, you go to the site, to the World Wide Web of UNESCO, and you can have it. You have the text of the new program.
{{Article body/End}}

===Federation for Information and Documentation (FID)===
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|18}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other organization I’m wondering about is FID [Federation for Information and Documentation]. I suppose the parallel organization is IFLA [International Federation of Library Associations] in the library world. Could you speak about your experiences while participating in these organizations?

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I was a member of FID many years ago, and I don’t think it had an important role in the past. Mostly because of the impact of the Russians. They were too static. I can say that in Russian, myself! [laughter] The Russians wanted to have a kind of forum for the outside world. They were doing certification, et cetera. I don’t know what they are doing now. Of course, with Martha Stone, the new director, they could move somewhere. But very often, they had very bad directors. You know, there was a Canadian at one time who was just a disaster. I don’t remember his name. He was terrible. He didn’t do anything. Martha Stone wants to do things. But, apart from the manifesto, they wrote lately, et cetera, I don’t see what they are doing. I don’t think they have an impact on the real world of information or people really working on information. Particularly because their representation is national. Nobody wanted the countries to go. In France, nobody wanted to go to FID. They said, “We don’t have money to spend for stupid things.”
:IFLA is different because IFLA is focused. IFLA is really focused on libraries. The libraries recognize themselves in IFLA. I don’t know who recognizes itself in FID. That is a problem with FID. I don’t know if they are going to continue or not. I just don’t know.

:I am a member of their publications board, but they never ask me anything. I just have my name on the publication. I once reviewed an article and suggested that they throw it away. Maybe that was why they didn’t ask me anymore. [laughter] I have worked with FID as the French representative and presented during some years, but we didn’t do anything. We were going to the meetings; that’s all. No real work. Martha is very good. Maybe she could do something, I don’t know. But it’s not so easy. You have to move people, and you have to know who to move. I don’t know any important people in FID. Nobody important that is visible in the information scene.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:In fact, some of the sorts of things that FID might well have done were probably taken over and done better by ICSU AB, and now ICSTI with its broad representation.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I’m not sure they’re interested in the types of things that FID is doing. The force and strength of ICSU AB, is that the directors who attend the meetings are the responsible people. Then, at the meeting, they can say, “I will,” or “I won’t.” They are not going to say, “I have to tell it to my government, to my country,” et cetera. I remember Dale Baker saying, “Oh, no. We can’t!” [laughter] But we knew that if he said he’d do it; he’d do it. We had the responsibility of what we were saying, as well as we were doing. That has made ICSU AB really move. This is still the case. It is very important.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|19}}
{{Article body/End}}
===The International Federation of Library Associations and Institutions (IFLA)===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Many of the major positions in IFLA are held by people who actually have authority to do things, too. That’s an interesting point.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:There are databases available in Germany through the German network. They
are available online through Questel, an international host. This was available in 1997. I have
been working lately with the European commission on a European project to create coordination
between the existing host computers, Questel, DIMDI, a Nordic host computer, a Swedish one,
and one other. This is to create the PASCAL bridges so that the user of DIMDI can access
PASCAL from the databases they don’t have. DIMDI has medicine, but if the databases didn’t
have it, they could access Questel with one simple password. They want more; they want to put
it on the internet just like that, without the host computer. I don’t know.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other part of making FRANCIS and PASCAL widely available is
overcoming the hegemony of the English.

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:How could you overcome the hegemony of the English? That’s absolutely
stupid. Two-thirds of the publications are in English. Let’s say, two-thirds of the publications
that count in the scientific world. But what do you want to do—translate them into French?
Look, I am for defending French. I don’t like when you are at an international meeting when
you have translation into English from French in the country. I always use French. I think it’s
normal. If we are in France, if there are translation services provided, I suppose they have been
provided for a reason. You can always express yourself much better in your own language than
in another language. I think it’s stupid for this snobbish attitude to speak English to continue.
But the reality is reality. The English word in information is the most important word. That’s
it. Why fight what exists? I don’t think it’s bad.
It’s not as if FRANCIS and PASCAL will be on the Internet and then English will not be
hegemonic. We would simply have a little bit more information in French, which could be all
right. But, anyway, if you go to the INIST site, you can have whatever you want.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Is the suggestion that it should be freely available?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. Again, I don’t know these people. I know only Jacques Le Maguer. I
don’t know the others. I never heard about them.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Well, I thought this was a very strange article. It seemed to be pushing a
particular point of view, very much against the idea that you spoke of, about the political move
to regionalization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The only guy who knows anything about that is Jacques Le Maguer. From what
I see, he now is working with L’Institut d’histoire du Temps Present. He has probably initiated
that. Which, in fact, is not a bad idea. Why not? But I think they also don’t know what they
are talking about. They have taken from papers some information—some good, some not. I
don’t know.
I would be very interested to know if my former deputy Francine Gourd read that—she
is probably retired now. But she was still working in 1997. She may have seen that.
{{Article body/End}}
[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organisations]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organizations

2021-04-26T08:28:12Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* Federation for Information and Documentation (FID) */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Conversation on Assorted Organizations==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|14}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Discussions about Euronet-Diane [Direct Information Access Network for Europe] began in the early 1970s, too, I think.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It began after the resolution of the Council of Ministers in 1971 to create the European network. There was a committee, Comité Internationale pour la Documentation Scientifique et Technique,{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|15}} CIDST. We had a meeting of this committee almost every week. I was one of the French representatives; Jacques Michel was the other one. First, it was Jacques Delors; and then Jacques Michel. We tried to prepare a European information network. Then there were a lot of groups in every field—in medicine, in metallurgy, with Georges Anderla, who was the director at that time. I still see him.

[END OF TAPE, SIDE 2]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We were trying to implement this European network at a political level to create relationships between the countries. This was for the countries to organize and to cooperate better in different fields, and see if we could exchange information, set up databases, and control what the commission was doing. In fact, they were working in medicine, agriculture, and metallurgy. They took a lot of time. I think we have set up a kind of common European atmosphere to do that. But it was really political.

:We were not doing practical things; we were just discussing at political levels what the commission was trying to do. We were also working with automatic translations. An American system was implemented in the commission and we tried to adapt it. I don’t think we have achieved anything important, apart from the creation of this European group.
{{Article body/End}}
===ICSU AB’s collaborations with international organizations===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were also involved with the ICSU AB early on. Have you continued to be involved?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I am an honorary fellow, but I don’t go to the meetings very much anymore. [laughter] I have left the ICSU AB, more or less. I still attended some NFAIS [National Federation of Abstracting and Indexing Societies] meetings, but more to meet old friends like Ed Kennedy and Dale [B. Baker] and so on. This year, in fact, I didn’t go because I was ill.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:So, tell me your impressions of ICSU AB and what it’s been able to achieve. Is it just essentially a forum for discussion and debate?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. At the beginning, ICSU AB was a family, and in fact, it still is. Don’t forget, in the 1960s, there were very few scientific information centers. We were getting together maybe ten or fifteen people. We were the pioneers, people like Dale Baker and Phyllis Parkins. Wiederman from Germany. Sorokin from Russia. We were all trying to have the world recognize that scientific information is something; it’s a profession, it’s work, it’s a job. We did that quite successfully all together because we really were like a family, and we discussed everything. There was no competition. The competition started maybe a little bit later. My Miles-Conrad lecture at NFAIS gives the atmosphere of the thinking at that time (4).
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|16}}
:But, in fact, I believe that the ICSU AB created the profession. We created the profession from scientists. That was the goal. Nobody was a librarian. We were all scientists. We wanted to recognize that to process science one needed to be more than a librarian. The users are not the normal users of a library. They’ll ask you more. That was the main goal at the beginning. After that, we said, “How can we work together to make things better for our users?”

:Then the difficulties started. How could you work with the Russians, with the Japanese? We were each using our own language. The French researchers didn’t know enough English. Researchers in physics, in chemistry, can use English, but go to medicine and just forget it. Like the Medline Database—I remember, I brought home research in Medline to my husband. He was a scientist, a politician doing political science. He would say, “What is this garbage? What do you want me to do with it?” I left it on the top of our cupboard, and during six months, he never touched it. Never. He said, “Bring me in some information that I can read.” That was what most of the users were doing at that time. Now, it has changed with the Internet, et cetera.

:You have to translate, also, for political reasons. The French basically didn’t want information in another language. But we had been working on periodicals, to give information to each other on periodicals issued in our countries. We had been doing a lot of work on automatic indexing and even manual indexing to try to set up type indexes so that the automatic indexing could be easier. Then the ICSU AB got a little sleepy.

:When I came from New York, eleven years after the UN [United Nations], I, of course, came back to the ICSU AB. I shook them up a little bit. I said, “Look, people, what have you done in ten years?” There were no changes. It was the same story and with the same talks, et cetera, for ten years. They recognized that more or less it was the same. But then, with the new people coming, the only problem I saw with ICSU AB—and, then, Marthe [Orfus], the secretary, was going to go, and someone else was going to take over the ''secretariat'' (office of the secretary)—maybe Barry Mahon. He was one of the candidates on the short list. If the secretariat goes to an American, then why have ICSU AB in any place? Let’s decide that NFAIS would be international. Anyway, this guy from INSPEC—I can’t remember the name— the young guy you saw in the picture, the blond, and myself, we were always invited to NFAIS. I am French; he was British; NFAIS is American.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When you look at the lists of the organizations at the meetings of NFAIS, most of
the European services are present.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, but that was not the case before. Then we wondered why to keep both. Of
course, ICSU AB was always an opportunity for the Chinese, the Taiwanese, the Japanese, and
the Russians to be in an international organization. Also, the ICSU proximity is very important
because the ICSU AB was a part of ICSU for a very long time. Now, they want to put it
together again.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|17}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When did they come apart? Why was ICSTI [International Council of Scientific and Technical Information] set up?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Because they considered that, they wanted not to have this very heavy shape of ICSU, to have commercial organizations as members. The ICSU was not a scientific organization with only scientists as members. For example, Elsevier [Inc.] couldn’t be a member of ICSU AB and of ICSU. They were commercial. Also, because at that time, the secretary general of ICSU AB wanted to be more independent. She didn’t want to have people telling her what to do. Of course, the members of ICSU AB said, “All right, let’s go; let’s do it separately.”
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Do you think, now, there is a move back to ICSU?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:This is what I was told. I saw the announcement for the job. They want to keep their relations with ICSU.
{{Article body/End}}

===UNESCO, Programme général d'information===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:It’s interesting, this process of moving away and moving back. You described it in INIST, itself. Now, ICSU AB, and, of course, UNESCO PGI [United Nations Education, Scientific, and Cultural Organization’s Programme Générale d’Information] are being re-conceptualized, I understand.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Well, now, we’re writing a new program completely. We have done
information for all programs. Now it’s on the executive committee, and then it will go to the
general conference. Hopefully, before the end of the year, our new program will be adopted. I
am on the chair of that so I have been working very hard. [laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Can you tell me a little about the nature of the changes that are being suggested?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:To go a little bit broader, not to focus on small things. To change the focus to
new technologies and to try to put the new technology in an international context for developing
countries. Let’s say, the influence of information highways on the information world—the main
goal is to move from the traditional information that exists in the older places to transferring
information using new technologies. Of course, there are a lot of details there. But if you want
to have a new program, you go to the site, to the World Wide Web of UNESCO, and you can
have it. You have the text of the new program.
{{Article body/End}}
===Federation for Information and Documentation (FID)===
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|18}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other organization I’m wondering about is FID [Federation for Information and Documentation]. I suppose the parallel organization is IFLA [International Federation of Library Associations] in the library world. Could you speak about your experiences while participating in these organizations?

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I was a member of FID many years ago, and I don’t think it had an important role in the past. Mostly because of the impact of the Russians. They were too static. I can say that in Russian, myself! [laughter] The Russians wanted to have a kind of forum for the outside world. They were doing certification, et cetera. I don’t know what they are doing now. Of course, with Martha Stone, the new director, they could move somewhere. But very often, they had very bad directors. You know, there was a Canadian at one time who was just a disaster. I don’t remember his name. He was terrible. He didn’t do anything. Martha Stone wants to do things. But, apart from the manifesto, they wrote lately, et cetera, I don’t see what they are doing. I don’t think they have an impact on the real world of information or people really working on information. Particularly because their representation is national. Nobody wanted the countries to go. In France, nobody wanted to go to FID. They said, “We don’t have money to spend for stupid things.”
:IFLA is different because IFLA is focused. IFLA is really focused on libraries. The libraries recognize themselves in IFLA. I don’t know who recognizes itself in FID. That is a problem with FID. I don’t know if they are going to continue or not. I just don’t know.

:I am a member of their publications board, but they never ask me anything. I just have my name on the publication. I once reviewed an article and suggested that they throw it away. Maybe that was why they didn’t ask me anymore. [laughter] I have worked with FID as the French representative and presented during some years, but we didn’t do anything. We were going to the meetings; that’s all. No real work. Martha is very good. Maybe she could do something, I don’t know. But it’s not so easy. You have to move people, and you have to know who to move. I don’t know any important people in FID. Nobody important that is visible in the information scene.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:In fact, some of the sorts of things that FID might well have done were probably taken over and done better by ICSU AB, and now ICSTI with its broad representation.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I’m not sure they’re interested in the types of things that FID is doing. The force and strength of ICSU AB, is that the directors who attend the meetings are the responsible people. Then, at the meeting, they can say, “I will,” or “I won’t.” They are not going to say, “I have to tell it to my government, to my country,” et cetera. I remember Dale Baker saying, “Oh, no. We can’t!” [laughter] But we knew that if he said he’d do it; he’d do it. We had the responsibility of what we were saying, as well as we were doing. That has made ICSU AB really move. This is still the case. It is very important.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|19}}
{{Article body/End}}
===The International Federation of Library Associations and Institutions (IFLA)===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Many of the major positions in IFLA are held by people who actually have authority to do things, too. That’s an interesting point.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:There are databases available in Germany through the German network. They
are available online through Questel, an international host. This was available in 1997. I have
been working lately with the European commission on a European project to create coordination
between the existing host computers, Questel, DIMDI, a Nordic host computer, a Swedish one,
and one other. This is to create the PASCAL bridges so that the user of DIMDI can access
PASCAL from the databases they don’t have. DIMDI has medicine, but if the databases didn’t
have it, they could access Questel with one simple password. They want more; they want to put
it on the internet just like that, without the host computer. I don’t know.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other part of making FRANCIS and PASCAL widely available is
overcoming the hegemony of the English.

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:How could you overcome the hegemony of the English? That’s absolutely
stupid. Two-thirds of the publications are in English. Let’s say, two-thirds of the publications
that count in the scientific world. But what do you want to do—translate them into French?
Look, I am for defending French. I don’t like when you are at an international meeting when
you have translation into English from French in the country. I always use French. I think it’s
normal. If we are in France, if there are translation services provided, I suppose they have been
provided for a reason. You can always express yourself much better in your own language than
in another language. I think it’s stupid for this snobbish attitude to speak English to continue.
But the reality is reality. The English word in information is the most important word. That’s
it. Why fight what exists? I don’t think it’s bad.
It’s not as if FRANCIS and PASCAL will be on the Internet and then English will not be
hegemonic. We would simply have a little bit more information in French, which could be all
right. But, anyway, if you go to the INIST site, you can have whatever you want.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Is the suggestion that it should be freely available?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. Again, I don’t know these people. I know only Jacques Le Maguer. I
don’t know the others. I never heard about them.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Well, I thought this was a very strange article. It seemed to be pushing a
particular point of view, very much against the idea that you spoke of, about the political move
to regionalization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The only guy who knows anything about that is Jacques Le Maguer. From what
I see, he now is working with L’Institut d’histoire du Temps Present. He has probably initiated
that. Which, in fact, is not a bad idea. Why not? But I think they also don’t know what they
are talking about. They have taken from papers some information—some good, some not. I
don’t know.
I would be very interested to know if my former deputy Francine Gourd read that—she
is probably retired now. But she was still working in 1997. She may have seen that.
{{Article body/End}}
[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organisations]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organizations

2021-04-26T08:21:42Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* Federation for Information and Documentation (FID) */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Conversation on Assorted Organizations==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|14}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Discussions about Euronet-Diane [Direct Information Access Network for Europe] began in the early 1970s, too, I think.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It began after the resolution of the Council of Ministers in 1971 to create the European network. There was a committee, Comité Internationale pour la Documentation Scientifique et Technique,{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|15}} CIDST. We had a meeting of this committee almost every week. I was one of the French representatives; Jacques Michel was the other one. First, it was Jacques Delors; and then Jacques Michel. We tried to prepare a European information network. Then there were a lot of groups in every field—in medicine, in metallurgy, with Georges Anderla, who was the director at that time. I still see him.

[END OF TAPE, SIDE 2]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We were trying to implement this European network at a political level to create relationships between the countries. This was for the countries to organize and to cooperate better in different fields, and see if we could exchange information, set up databases, and control what the commission was doing. In fact, they were working in medicine, agriculture, and metallurgy. They took a lot of time. I think we have set up a kind of common European atmosphere to do that. But it was really political.

:We were not doing practical things; we were just discussing at political levels what the commission was trying to do. We were also working with automatic translations. An American system was implemented in the commission and we tried to adapt it. I don’t think we have achieved anything important, apart from the creation of this European group.
{{Article body/End}}
===ICSU AB’s collaborations with international organizations===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were also involved with the ICSU AB early on. Have you continued to be involved?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I am an honorary fellow, but I don’t go to the meetings very much anymore. [laughter] I have left the ICSU AB, more or less. I still attended some NFAIS [National Federation of Abstracting and Indexing Societies] meetings, but more to meet old friends like Ed Kennedy and Dale [B. Baker] and so on. This year, in fact, I didn’t go because I was ill.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:So, tell me your impressions of ICSU AB and what it’s been able to achieve. Is it just essentially a forum for discussion and debate?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. At the beginning, ICSU AB was a family, and in fact, it still is. Don’t forget, in the 1960s, there were very few scientific information centers. We were getting together maybe ten or fifteen people. We were the pioneers, people like Dale Baker and Phyllis Parkins. Wiederman from Germany. Sorokin from Russia. We were all trying to have the world recognize that scientific information is something; it’s a profession, it’s work, it’s a job. We did that quite successfully all together because we really were like a family, and we discussed everything. There was no competition. The competition started maybe a little bit later. My Miles-Conrad lecture at NFAIS gives the atmosphere of the thinking at that time (4).
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|16}}
:But, in fact, I believe that the ICSU AB created the profession. We created the profession from scientists. That was the goal. Nobody was a librarian. We were all scientists. We wanted to recognize that to process science one needed to be more than a librarian. The users are not the normal users of a library. They’ll ask you more. That was the main goal at the beginning. After that, we said, “How can we work together to make things better for our users?”

:Then the difficulties started. How could you work with the Russians, with the Japanese? We were each using our own language. The French researchers didn’t know enough English. Researchers in physics, in chemistry, can use English, but go to medicine and just forget it. Like the Medline Database—I remember, I brought home research in Medline to my husband. He was a scientist, a politician doing political science. He would say, “What is this garbage? What do you want me to do with it?” I left it on the top of our cupboard, and during six months, he never touched it. Never. He said, “Bring me in some information that I can read.” That was what most of the users were doing at that time. Now, it has changed with the Internet, et cetera.

:You have to translate, also, for political reasons. The French basically didn’t want information in another language. But we had been working on periodicals, to give information to each other on periodicals issued in our countries. We had been doing a lot of work on automatic indexing and even manual indexing to try to set up type indexes so that the automatic indexing could be easier. Then the ICSU AB got a little sleepy.

:When I came from New York, eleven years after the UN [United Nations], I, of course, came back to the ICSU AB. I shook them up a little bit. I said, “Look, people, what have you done in ten years?” There were no changes. It was the same story and with the same talks, et cetera, for ten years. They recognized that more or less it was the same. But then, with the new people coming, the only problem I saw with ICSU AB—and, then, Marthe [Orfus], the secretary, was going to go, and someone else was going to take over the ''secretariat'' (office of the secretary)—maybe Barry Mahon. He was one of the candidates on the short list. If the secretariat goes to an American, then why have ICSU AB in any place? Let’s decide that NFAIS would be international. Anyway, this guy from INSPEC—I can’t remember the name— the young guy you saw in the picture, the blond, and myself, we were always invited to NFAIS. I am French; he was British; NFAIS is American.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When you look at the lists of the organizations at the meetings of NFAIS, most of
the European services are present.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, but that was not the case before. Then we wondered why to keep both. Of
course, ICSU AB was always an opportunity for the Chinese, the Taiwanese, the Japanese, and
the Russians to be in an international organization. Also, the ICSU proximity is very important
because the ICSU AB was a part of ICSU for a very long time. Now, they want to put it
together again.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|17}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When did they come apart? Why was ICSTI [International Council of Scientific and Technical Information] set up?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Because they considered that, they wanted not to have this very heavy shape of ICSU, to have commercial organizations as members. The ICSU was not a scientific organization with only scientists as members. For example, Elsevier [Inc.] couldn’t be a member of ICSU AB and of ICSU. They were commercial. Also, because at that time, the secretary general of ICSU AB wanted to be more independent. She didn’t want to have people telling her what to do. Of course, the members of ICSU AB said, “All right, let’s go; let’s do it separately.”
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Do you think, now, there is a move back to ICSU?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:This is what I was told. I saw the announcement for the job. They want to keep their relations with ICSU.
{{Article body/End}}

===UNESCO, Programme général d'information===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:It’s interesting, this process of moving away and moving back. You described it in INIST, itself. Now, ICSU AB, and, of course, UNESCO PGI [United Nations Education, Scientific, and Cultural Organization’s Programme Générale d’Information] are being re-conceptualized, I understand.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Well, now, we’re writing a new program completely. We have done
information for all programs. Now it’s on the executive committee, and then it will go to the
general conference. Hopefully, before the end of the year, our new program will be adopted. I
am on the chair of that so I have been working very hard. [laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Can you tell me a little about the nature of the changes that are being suggested?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:To go a little bit broader, not to focus on small things. To change the focus to
new technologies and to try to put the new technology in an international context for developing
countries. Let’s say, the influence of information highways on the information world—the main
goal is to move from the traditional information that exists in the older places to transferring
information using new technologies. Of course, there are a lot of details there. But if you want
to have a new program, you go to the site, to the World Wide Web of UNESCO, and you can
have it. You have the text of the new program.
{{Article body/End}}
===Federation for Information and Documentation (FID)===
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|18}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other organization I’m wondering about is FID [Federation for Information and Documentation]. I suppose the parallel organization is IFLA [International Federation of Library Associations] in the library world. Could you speak about your experiences while participating in these organizations?

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:I was a member of FID many years ago, and I don’t think it had an important role in the past. Mostly because of the impact of the Russians. They were too static. I can say that in Russian, myself! [laughter] The Russians wanted to have a kind of forum for the outside world. They were doing certification, et cetera. I don’t know what they are doing now. Of course, with Martha Stone, the new director, they could move somewhere. But very often, they had very bad directors. You know, there was a Canadian at one time who was just a disaster. I don’t remember his name. He was terrible. He didn’t do anything. Martha Stone wants to do things. But, apart from the manifesto, they wrote lately, et cetera, I don’t see what they are doing. I don’t think they have an impact on the real world of information or people really working on information. Particularly because their representation is national. Nobody wanted the countries to go. In France, nobody wanted to go to FID. They said, “We don’t have money to spend for stupid things.”
:IFLA is different because IFLA is focused. IFLA is really focused on libraries. The libraries recognize themselves in IFLA. I don’t know who recognizes itself in FID. That is a problem with FID. I don’t know if they are going to continue or not. I just don’t know.

:I am a member of their publications board, but they never ask me anything. I just have my name on the publication. I once reviewed an article and suggested that they throw it away. Maybe that was why they didn’t ask me anymore. [laughter] I have worked with FID as the French representative and presented during some years, but we didn’t do anything. We were going to the meetings; that’s all. No real work. Martha is very good. Maybe she could do something, I don’t know. But it’s not so easy. You have to move people, and you have to know who to move. I don’t know any important people in FID. Nobody important that is visible in the information scene.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:In fact, some of the sorts of things that FID might well have done were probably taken over and done better by ICSU AB, and now ICSTI with its broad representation.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I’m not sure they’re interested in the types of things that FID is doing. The force and strength of ICSU AB, is that the directors who attend the meetings are the responsible people. Then, at the meeting, they can say, “I will,” or “I won’t.” They are not going to say, “I have to tell it to my government, to my country,” et cetera. I remember Dale Baker saying, “Oh, no. We can’t!” [laughter] But we knew that if he said he’d do it; he’d do it. We had the responsibility of what we were saying, as well as we were doing. That has made ICSU AB really move. This is still the case. It is very important.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|19}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Many of the major positions in IFLA are held by people who actually have authority to do things, too. That’s an interesting point.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:There are databases available in Germany through the German network. They
are available online through Questel, an international host. This was available in 1997. I have
been working lately with the European commission on a European project to create coordination
between the existing host computers, Questel, DIMDI, a Nordic host computer, a Swedish one,
and one other. This is to create the PASCAL bridges so that the user of DIMDI can access
PASCAL from the databases they don’t have. DIMDI has medicine, but if the databases didn’t
have it, they could access Questel with one simple password. They want more; they want to put
it on the internet just like that, without the host computer. I don’t know.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other part of making FRANCIS and PASCAL widely available is
overcoming the hegemony of the English.

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:How could you overcome the hegemony of the English? That’s absolutely
stupid. Two-thirds of the publications are in English. Let’s say, two-thirds of the publications
that count in the scientific world. But what do you want to do—translate them into French?
Look, I am for defending French. I don’t like when you are at an international meeting when
you have translation into English from French in the country. I always use French. I think it’s
normal. If we are in France, if there are translation services provided, I suppose they have been
provided for a reason. You can always express yourself much better in your own language than
in another language. I think it’s stupid for this snobbish attitude to speak English to continue.
But the reality is reality. The English word in information is the most important word. That’s
it. Why fight what exists? I don’t think it’s bad.
It’s not as if FRANCIS and PASCAL will be on the Internet and then English will not be
hegemonic. We would simply have a little bit more information in French, which could be all
right. But, anyway, if you go to the INIST site, you can have whatever you want.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Is the suggestion that it should be freely available?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. Again, I don’t know these people. I know only Jacques Le Maguer. I
don’t know the others. I never heard about them.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Well, I thought this was a very strange article. It seemed to be pushing a
particular point of view, very much against the idea that you spoke of, about the political move
to regionalization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The only guy who knows anything about that is Jacques Le Maguer. From what
I see, he now is working with L’Institut d’histoire du Temps Present. He has probably initiated
that. Which, in fact, is not a bad idea. Why not? But I think they also don’t know what they
are talking about. They have taken from papers some information—some good, some not. I
don’t know.
I would be very interested to know if my former deputy Francine Gourd read that—she
is probably retired now. But she was still working in 1997. She may have seen that.
{{Article body/End}}
[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organisations]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organizations

2021-04-26T07:11:11Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* Federation for Information and Documentation (FID) */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Conversation on Assorted Organizations==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|14}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Discussions about Euronet-Diane [Direct Information Access Network for Europe] began in the early 1970s, too, I think.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It began after the resolution of the Council of Ministers in 1971 to create the European network. There was a committee, Comité Internationale pour la Documentation Scientifique et Technique,{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|15}} CIDST. We had a meeting of this committee almost every week. I was one of the French representatives; Jacques Michel was the other one. First, it was Jacques Delors; and then Jacques Michel. We tried to prepare a European information network. Then there were a lot of groups in every field—in medicine, in metallurgy, with Georges Anderla, who was the director at that time. I still see him.

[END OF TAPE, SIDE 2]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We were trying to implement this European network at a political level to create relationships between the countries. This was for the countries to organize and to cooperate better in different fields, and see if we could exchange information, set up databases, and control what the commission was doing. In fact, they were working in medicine, agriculture, and metallurgy. They took a lot of time. I think we have set up a kind of common European atmosphere to do that. But it was really political.

:We were not doing practical things; we were just discussing at political levels what the commission was trying to do. We were also working with automatic translations. An American system was implemented in the commission and we tried to adapt it. I don’t think we have achieved anything important, apart from the creation of this European group.
{{Article body/End}}
===ICSU AB’s collaborations with international organizations===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were also involved with the ICSU AB early on. Have you continued to be involved?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I am an honorary fellow, but I don’t go to the meetings very much anymore. [laughter] I have left the ICSU AB, more or less. I still attended some NFAIS [National Federation of Abstracting and Indexing Societies] meetings, but more to meet old friends like Ed Kennedy and Dale [B. Baker] and so on. This year, in fact, I didn’t go because I was ill.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:So, tell me your impressions of ICSU AB and what it’s been able to achieve. Is it just essentially a forum for discussion and debate?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. At the beginning, ICSU AB was a family, and in fact, it still is. Don’t forget, in the 1960s, there were very few scientific information centers. We were getting together maybe ten or fifteen people. We were the pioneers, people like Dale Baker and Phyllis Parkins. Wiederman from Germany. Sorokin from Russia. We were all trying to have the world recognize that scientific information is something; it’s a profession, it’s work, it’s a job. We did that quite successfully all together because we really were like a family, and we discussed everything. There was no competition. The competition started maybe a little bit later. My Miles-Conrad lecture at NFAIS gives the atmosphere of the thinking at that time (4).
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|16}}
:But, in fact, I believe that the ICSU AB created the profession. We created the profession from scientists. That was the goal. Nobody was a librarian. We were all scientists. We wanted to recognize that to process science one needed to be more than a librarian. The users are not the normal users of a library. They’ll ask you more. That was the main goal at the beginning. After that, we said, “How can we work together to make things better for our users?”

:Then the difficulties started. How could you work with the Russians, with the Japanese? We were each using our own language. The French researchers didn’t know enough English. Researchers in physics, in chemistry, can use English, but go to medicine and just forget it. Like the Medline Database—I remember, I brought home research in Medline to my husband. He was a scientist, a politician doing political science. He would say, “What is this garbage? What do you want me to do with it?” I left it on the top of our cupboard, and during six months, he never touched it. Never. He said, “Bring me in some information that I can read.” That was what most of the users were doing at that time. Now, it has changed with the Internet, et cetera.

:You have to translate, also, for political reasons. The French basically didn’t want information in another language. But we had been working on periodicals, to give information to each other on periodicals issued in our countries. We had been doing a lot of work on automatic indexing and even manual indexing to try to set up type indexes so that the automatic indexing could be easier. Then the ICSU AB got a little sleepy.

:When I came from New York, eleven years after the UN [United Nations], I, of course, came back to the ICSU AB. I shook them up a little bit. I said, “Look, people, what have you done in ten years?” There were no changes. It was the same story and with the same talks, et cetera, for ten years. They recognized that more or less it was the same. But then, with the new people coming, the only problem I saw with ICSU AB—and, then, Marthe [Orfus], the secretary, was going to go, and someone else was going to take over the ''secretariat'' (office of the secretary)—maybe Barry Mahon. He was one of the candidates on the short list. If the secretariat goes to an American, then why have ICSU AB in any place? Let’s decide that NFAIS would be international. Anyway, this guy from INSPEC—I can’t remember the name— the young guy you saw in the picture, the blond, and myself, we were always invited to NFAIS. I am French; he was British; NFAIS is American.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When you look at the lists of the organizations at the meetings of NFAIS, most of
the European services are present.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, but that was not the case before. Then we wondered why to keep both. Of
course, ICSU AB was always an opportunity for the Chinese, the Taiwanese, the Japanese, and
the Russians to be in an international organization. Also, the ICSU proximity is very important
because the ICSU AB was a part of ICSU for a very long time. Now, they want to put it
together again.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|17}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When did they come apart? Why was ICSTI [International Council of Scientific and Technical Information] set up?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Because they considered that, they wanted not to have this very heavy shape of ICSU, to have commercial organizations as members. The ICSU was not a scientific organization with only scientists as members. For example, Elsevier [Inc.] couldn’t be a member of ICSU AB and of ICSU. They were commercial. Also, because at that time, the secretary general of ICSU AB wanted to be more independent. She didn’t want to have people telling her what to do. Of course, the members of ICSU AB said, “All right, let’s go; let’s do it separately.”
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Do you think, now, there is a move back to ICSU?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:This is what I was told. I saw the announcement for the job. They want to keep their relations with ICSU.
{{Article body/End}}

===UNESCO, Programme général d'information===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:It’s interesting, this process of moving away and moving back. You described it in INIST, itself. Now, ICSU AB, and, of course, UNESCO PGI [United Nations Education, Scientific, and Cultural Organization’s Programme Générale d’Information] are being re-conceptualized, I understand.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Well, now, we’re writing a new program completely. We have done
information for all programs. Now it’s on the executive committee, and then it will go to the
general conference. Hopefully, before the end of the year, our new program will be adopted. I
am on the chair of that so I have been working very hard. [laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Can you tell me a little about the nature of the changes that are being suggested?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:To go a little bit broader, not to focus on small things. To change the focus to
new technologies and to try to put the new technology in an international context for developing
countries. Let’s say, the influence of information highways on the information world—the main
goal is to move from the traditional information that exists in the older places to transferring
information using new technologies. Of course, there are a lot of details there. But if you want
to have a new program, you go to the site, to the World Wide Web of UNESCO, and you can
have it. You have the text of the new program.
{{Article body/End}}
===Federation for Information and Documentation (FID)===
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|18}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other organization I’m wondering about is FID [Federation for Information and Documentation]. I suppose the parallel organization is IFLA [International Federation of Library Associations] in the library world. Could you speak about your experiences while participating in these organizations?

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: was a member of FID many years ago, and I don’t think it had an important role in the past. Mostly because of the impact of the Russians. They were too static. I can say that in Russian, myself! [laughter] The Russians wanted to have a kind of forum for the outside world. They were doing certification, et cetera. I don’t know what they are doing now. Of course, with Martha Stone, the new director, they could move somewhere. But very often, they had very bad directors. You know, there was a Canadian at one time who was just a disaster. I don’t remember his name. He was terrible. He didn’t do anything. Martha Stone wants to do things. But, apart from the manifesto, they wrote lately, et cetera, I don’t see what they are doing. I don’t think they have an impact on the real world of information or people really working on information. Particularly because their representation is national. Nobody wanted the countries to go. In France, nobody wanted to go to FID. They said, “We don’t have money to spend for stupid things.”
:IFLA is different because IFLA is focused. IFLA is really focused on libraries. The libraries recognize themselves in IFLA. I don’t know who recognizes itself in FID. That is a problem with FID. I don’t know if they are going to continue or not. I just don’t know.

:I am a member of their publications board, but they never ask me anything. I just have my name on the publication. I once reviewed an article and suggested that they throw it away. Maybe that was why they didn’t ask me anymore. [laughter] I have worked with FID as the French representative and presented during some years, but we didn’t do anything. We were going to the meetings; that’s all. No real work. Martha is very good. Maybe she could do something, I don’t know. But it’s not so easy. You have to move people, and you have to know who to move. I don’t know any important people in FID. Nobody important that is visible in the information scene.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:In fact, some of the sorts of things that FID might well have done were probably taken over and done better by ICSU AB, and now ICSTI with its broad representation.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I’m not sure they’re interested in the types of things that FID is doing. The force and strength of ICSU AB, is that the directors who attend the meetings are the responsible people. Then, at the meeting, they can say, “I will,” or “I won’t.” They are not going to say, “I have to tell it to my government, to my country,” et cetera. I remember Dale Baker saying, “Oh, no. We can’t!” [laughter] But we knew that if he said he’d do it; he’d do it. We had the responsibility of what we were saying, as well as we were doing. That has made ICSU AB really move. This is still the case. It is very important.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|19}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Many of the major positions in IFLA are held by people who actually have authority to do things, too. That’s an interesting point.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:There are databases available in Germany through the German network. They
are available online through Questel, an international host. This was available in 1997. I have
been working lately with the European commission on a European project to create coordination
between the existing host computers, Questel, DIMDI, a Nordic host computer, a Swedish one,
and one other. This is to create the PASCAL bridges so that the user of DIMDI can access
PASCAL from the databases they don’t have. DIMDI has medicine, but if the databases didn’t
have it, they could access Questel with one simple password. They want more; they want to put
it on the internet just like that, without the host computer. I don’t know.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other part of making FRANCIS and PASCAL widely available is
overcoming the hegemony of the English.

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:How could you overcome the hegemony of the English? That’s absolutely
stupid. Two-thirds of the publications are in English. Let’s say, two-thirds of the publications
that count in the scientific world. But what do you want to do—translate them into French?
Look, I am for defending French. I don’t like when you are at an international meeting when
you have translation into English from French in the country. I always use French. I think it’s
normal. If we are in France, if there are translation services provided, I suppose they have been
provided for a reason. You can always express yourself much better in your own language than
in another language. I think it’s stupid for this snobbish attitude to speak English to continue.
But the reality is reality. The English word in information is the most important word. That’s
it. Why fight what exists? I don’t think it’s bad.
It’s not as if FRANCIS and PASCAL will be on the Internet and then English will not be
hegemonic. We would simply have a little bit more information in French, which could be all
right. But, anyway, if you go to the INIST site, you can have whatever you want.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Is the suggestion that it should be freely available?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. Again, I don’t know these people. I know only Jacques Le Maguer. I
don’t know the others. I never heard about them.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Well, I thought this was a very strange article. It seemed to be pushing a
particular point of view, very much against the idea that you spoke of, about the political move
to regionalization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The only guy who knows anything about that is Jacques Le Maguer. From what
I see, he now is working with L’Institut d’histoire du Temps Present. He has probably initiated
that. Which, in fact, is not a bad idea. Why not? But I think they also don’t know what they
are talking about. They have taken from papers some information—some good, some not. I
don’t know.
I would be very interested to know if my former deputy Francine Gourd read that—she
is probably retired now. But she was still working in 1997. She may have seen that.
{{Article body/End}}
[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organisations]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organizations

2021-04-26T05:09:45Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* ICSU AB’s collaborations with international organizations */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Conversation on Assorted Organizations==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|14}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Discussions about Euronet-Diane [Direct Information Access Network for Europe] began in the early 1970s, too, I think.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It began after the resolution of the Council of Ministers in 1971 to create the European network. There was a committee, Comité Internationale pour la Documentation Scientifique et Technique,{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|15}} CIDST. We had a meeting of this committee almost every week. I was one of the French representatives; Jacques Michel was the other one. First, it was Jacques Delors; and then Jacques Michel. We tried to prepare a European information network. Then there were a lot of groups in every field—in medicine, in metallurgy, with Georges Anderla, who was the director at that time. I still see him.

[END OF TAPE, SIDE 2]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We were trying to implement this European network at a political level to create relationships between the countries. This was for the countries to organize and to cooperate better in different fields, and see if we could exchange information, set up databases, and control what the commission was doing. In fact, they were working in medicine, agriculture, and metallurgy. They took a lot of time. I think we have set up a kind of common European atmosphere to do that. But it was really political.

:We were not doing practical things; we were just discussing at political levels what the commission was trying to do. We were also working with automatic translations. An American system was implemented in the commission and we tried to adapt it. I don’t think we have achieved anything important, apart from the creation of this European group.
{{Article body/End}}
===ICSU AB’s collaborations with international organizations===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were also involved with the ICSU AB early on. Have you continued to be involved?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I am an honorary fellow, but I don’t go to the meetings very much anymore. [laughter] I have left the ICSU AB, more or less. I still attended some NFAIS [National Federation of Abstracting and Indexing Societies] meetings, but more to meet old friends like Ed Kennedy and Dale [B. Baker] and so on. This year, in fact, I didn’t go because I was ill.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:So, tell me your impressions of ICSU AB and what it’s been able to achieve. Is it just essentially a forum for discussion and debate?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. At the beginning, ICSU AB was a family, and in fact, it still is. Don’t forget, in the 1960s, there were very few scientific information centers. We were getting together maybe ten or fifteen people. We were the pioneers, people like Dale Baker and Phyllis Parkins. Wiederman from Germany. Sorokin from Russia. We were all trying to have the world recognize that scientific information is something; it’s a profession, it’s work, it’s a job. We did that quite successfully all together because we really were like a family, and we discussed everything. There was no competition. The competition started maybe a little bit later. My Miles-Conrad lecture at NFAIS gives the atmosphere of the thinking at that time (4).
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|16}}
:But, in fact, I believe that the ICSU AB created the profession. We created the profession from scientists. That was the goal. Nobody was a librarian. We were all scientists. We wanted to recognize that to process science one needed to be more than a librarian. The users are not the normal users of a library. They’ll ask you more. That was the main goal at the beginning. After that, we said, “How can we work together to make things better for our users?”

:Then the difficulties started. How could you work with the Russians, with the Japanese? We were each using our own language. The French researchers didn’t know enough English. Researchers in physics, in chemistry, can use English, but go to medicine and just forget it. Like the Medline Database—I remember, I brought home research in Medline to my husband. He was a scientist, a politician doing political science. He would say, “What is this garbage? What do you want me to do with it?” I left it on the top of our cupboard, and during six months, he never touched it. Never. He said, “Bring me in some information that I can read.” That was what most of the users were doing at that time. Now, it has changed with the Internet, et cetera.

:You have to translate, also, for political reasons. The French basically didn’t want information in another language. But we had been working on periodicals, to give information to each other on periodicals issued in our countries. We had been doing a lot of work on automatic indexing and even manual indexing to try to set up type indexes so that the automatic indexing could be easier. Then the ICSU AB got a little sleepy.

:When I came from New York, eleven years after the UN [United Nations], I, of course, came back to the ICSU AB. I shook them up a little bit. I said, “Look, people, what have you done in ten years?” There were no changes. It was the same story and with the same talks, et cetera, for ten years. They recognized that more or less it was the same. But then, with the new people coming, the only problem I saw with ICSU AB—and, then, Marthe [Orfus], the secretary, was going to go, and someone else was going to take over the ''secretariat'' (office of the secretary)—maybe Barry Mahon. He was one of the candidates on the short list. If the secretariat goes to an American, then why have ICSU AB in any place? Let’s decide that NFAIS would be international. Anyway, this guy from INSPEC—I can’t remember the name— the young guy you saw in the picture, the blond, and myself, we were always invited to NFAIS. I am French; he was British; NFAIS is American.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When you look at the lists of the organizations at the meetings of NFAIS, most of
the European services are present.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, but that was not the case before. Then we wondered why to keep both. Of
course, ICSU AB was always an opportunity for the Chinese, the Taiwanese, the Japanese, and
the Russians to be in an international organization. Also, the ICSU proximity is very important
because the ICSU AB was a part of ICSU for a very long time. Now, they want to put it
together again.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|17}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When did they come apart? Why was ICSTI [International Council of Scientific and Technical Information] set up?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Because they considered that, they wanted not to have this very heavy shape of ICSU, to have commercial organizations as members. The ICSU was not a scientific organization with only scientists as members. For example, Elsevier [Inc.] couldn’t be a member of ICSU AB and of ICSU. They were commercial. Also, because at that time, the secretary general of ICSU AB wanted to be more independent. She didn’t want to have people telling her what to do. Of course, the members of ICSU AB said, “All right, let’s go; let’s do it separately.”
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Do you think, now, there is a move back to ICSU?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:This is what I was told. I saw the announcement for the job. They want to keep their relations with ICSU.
{{Article body/End}}

===UNESCO, Programme général d'information===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:It’s interesting, this process of moving away and moving back. You described it in INIST, itself. Now, ICSU AB, and, of course, UNESCO PGI [United Nations Education, Scientific, and Cultural Organization’s Programme Générale d’Information] are being re-conceptualized, I understand.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Well, now, we’re writing a new program completely. We have done
information for all programs. Now it’s on the executive committee, and then it will go to the
general conference. Hopefully, before the end of the year, our new program will be adopted. I
am on the chair of that so I have been working very hard. [laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Can you tell me a little about the nature of the changes that are being suggested?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:To go a little bit broader, not to focus on small things. To change the focus to
new technologies and to try to put the new technology in an international context for developing
countries. Let’s say, the influence of information highways on the information world—the main
goal is to move from the traditional information that exists in the older places to transferring
information using new technologies. Of course, there are a lot of details there. But if you want
to have a new program, you go to the site, to the World Wide Web of UNESCO, and you can
have it. You have the text of the new program.
{{Article body/End}}
===Federation for Information and Documentation (FID)===
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|18}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other organization I’m wondering about is FID [Federation for Information
and Documentation]. I suppose the parallel organization is IFLA [International Federation of
Library Associations] in the library world. Could you speak about your experiences while
participating in these organizations?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: was a member of FID many years ago, and I don’t think it had an important
role in the past. Mostly because of the impact of the Russians. They were too static. I can say
that in Russian, myself! [laughter] The Russians wanted to have a kind of forum for the outside
world. They were doing certification, et cetera. I don’t know what they are doing now. Of
course, with Martha Stone, the new director, they could move somewhere. But very often, they
had very bad directors. You know, there was a Canadian at one time who was just a disaster. I
don’t remember his name. He was terrible. He didn’t do anything. Martha Stone wants to do
things. But, apart from the manifesto, they wrote lately, et cetera, I don’t see what they are
doing. I don’t think they have an impact on the real world of information or people really
working on information. Particularly because their representation is national. Nobody wanted
the countries to go. In France, nobody wanted to go to FID. They said, “We don’t have money
to spend for stupid things.”
:IFLA is different because IFLA is focused. IFLA is really focused on libraries. The
libraries recognize themselves in IFLA. I don’t know who recognizes itself in FID. That is a
problem with FID. I don’t know if they are going to continue or not. I just don’t know.
I am a member of their publications board, but they never ask me anything. I just have
my name on the publication. I once reviewed an article and suggested that they throw it away.
Maybe that was why they didn’t ask me anymore. [laughter] I have worked with FID as the
French representative and presented during some years, but we didn’t do anything. We were
going to the meetings; that’s all. No real work. Martha is very good. Maybe she could do
something, I don’t know. But it’s not so easy. You have to move people, and you have to know
who to move. I don’t know any important people in FID. Nobody important that is visible in
the information scene.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:In fact, some of the sorts of things that FID might well have done were probably
taken over and done better by ICSU AB, and now ICSTI with its broad representation.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:
I’m not sure they’re interested in the types of things that FID is doing. The
force and strength of ICSU AB, is that the directors who attend the meetings are the responsible
people. Then, at the meeting, they can say, “I will,” or “I won’t.” They are not going to say, “I
have to tell it to my government, to my country,” et cetera. I remember Dale Baker saying, “Oh,
no. We can’t!” [laughter] But we knew that if he said he’d do it; he’d do it. We had the
responsibility of what we were saying, as well as we were doing. That has made ICSU AB
really move. This is still the case. It is very important.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|19}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Many of the major positions in IFLA are held by people who actually have
authority to do things, too. That’s an interesting point.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:There are databases available in Germany through the German network. They
are available online through Questel, an international host. This was available in 1997. I have
been working lately with the European commission on a European project to create coordination
between the existing host computers, Questel, DIMDI, a Nordic host computer, a Swedish one,
and one other. This is to create the PASCAL bridges so that the user of DIMDI can access
PASCAL from the databases they don’t have. DIMDI has medicine, but if the databases didn’t
have it, they could access Questel with one simple password. They want more; they want to put
it on the internet just like that, without the host computer. I don’t know.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other part of making FRANCIS and PASCAL widely available is
overcoming the hegemony of the English.

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:How could you overcome the hegemony of the English? That’s absolutely
stupid. Two-thirds of the publications are in English. Let’s say, two-thirds of the publications
that count in the scientific world. But what do you want to do—translate them into French?
Look, I am for defending French. I don’t like when you are at an international meeting when
you have translation into English from French in the country. I always use French. I think it’s
normal. If we are in France, if there are translation services provided, I suppose they have been
provided for a reason. You can always express yourself much better in your own language than
in another language. I think it’s stupid for this snobbish attitude to speak English to continue.
But the reality is reality. The English word in information is the most important word. That’s
it. Why fight what exists? I don’t think it’s bad.
It’s not as if FRANCIS and PASCAL will be on the Internet and then English will not be
hegemonic. We would simply have a little bit more information in French, which could be all
right. But, anyway, if you go to the INIST site, you can have whatever you want.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Is the suggestion that it should be freely available?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. Again, I don’t know these people. I know only Jacques Le Maguer. I
don’t know the others. I never heard about them.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Well, I thought this was a very strange article. It seemed to be pushing a
particular point of view, very much against the idea that you spoke of, about the political move
to regionalization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The only guy who knows anything about that is Jacques Le Maguer. From what
I see, he now is working with L’Institut d’histoire du Temps Present. He has probably initiated
that. Which, in fact, is not a bad idea. Why not? But I think they also don’t know what they
are talking about. They have taken from papers some information—some good, some not. I
don’t know.
I would be very interested to know if my former deputy Francine Gourd read that—she
is probably retired now. But she was still working in 1997. She may have seen that.
{{Article body/End}}
[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organisations]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organizations

2021-04-26T05:08:13Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* ICSU AB’s collaborations with international organizations */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Conversation on Assorted Organizations==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|14}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Discussions about Euronet-Diane [Direct Information Access Network for Europe] began in the early 1970s, too, I think.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It began after the resolution of the Council of Ministers in 1971 to create the European network. There was a committee, Comité Internationale pour la Documentation Scientifique et Technique,{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|15}} CIDST. We had a meeting of this committee almost every week. I was one of the French representatives; Jacques Michel was the other one. First, it was Jacques Delors; and then Jacques Michel. We tried to prepare a European information network. Then there were a lot of groups in every field—in medicine, in metallurgy, with Georges Anderla, who was the director at that time. I still see him.

[END OF TAPE, SIDE 2]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We were trying to implement this European network at a political level to create relationships between the countries. This was for the countries to organize and to cooperate better in different fields, and see if we could exchange information, set up databases, and control what the commission was doing. In fact, they were working in medicine, agriculture, and metallurgy. They took a lot of time. I think we have set up a kind of common European atmosphere to do that. But it was really political.

:We were not doing practical things; we were just discussing at political levels what the commission was trying to do. We were also working with automatic translations. An American system was implemented in the commission and we tried to adapt it. I don’t think we have achieved anything important, apart from the creation of this European group.
{{Article body/End}}
===ICSU AB’s collaborations with international organizations===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were also involved with the ICSU AB early on. Have you continued to be involved?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I am an honorary fellow, but I don’t go to the meetings very much anymore. [laughter] I have left the ICSU AB, more or less. I still attended some NFAIS [National Federation of Abstracting and Indexing Societies] meetings, but more to meet old friends like Ed Kennedy and Dale [B. Baker] and so on. This year, in fact, I didn’t go because I was ill.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:So, tell me your impressions of ICSU AB and what it’s been able to achieve. Is it just essentially a forum for discussion and debate?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. At the beginning, ICSU AB was a family, and in fact, it still is. Don’t forget, in the 1960s, there were very few scientific information centers. We were getting together maybe ten or fifteen people. We were the pioneers, people like Dale Baker and Phyllis Parkins. Wiederman from Germany. Sorokin from Russia. We were all trying to have the world recognize that scientific information is something; it’s a profession, it’s work, it’s a job. We did that quite successfully all together because we really were like a family, and we discussed everything. There was no competition. The competition started maybe a little bit later. My Miles-Conrad lecture at NFAIS gives the atmosphere of the thinking at that time (4).
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|16}}
:But, in fact, I believe that the ICSU AB created the profession. We created the profession from scientists. That was the goal. Nobody was a librarian. We were all scientists. We wanted to recognize that to process science one needed to be more than a librarian. The users are not the normal users of a library. They’ll ask you more. That was the main goal at the beginning. After that, we said, “How can we work together to make things better for our users?”

:Then the difficulties started. How could you work with the Russians, with the Japanese? We were each using our own language. The French researchers didn’t know enough English. Researchers in physics, in chemistry, can use English, but go to medicine and just forget it. Like the Medline Database—I remember, I brought home research in Medline to my husband. He was a scientist, a politician doing political science. He would say, “What is this garbage? What do you want me to do with it?” I left it on the top of our cupboard, and during six months, he never touched it. Never. He said, “Bring me in some information that I can read.” That was what most of the users were doing at that time. Now, it has changed with the Internet, et cetera.

:You have to translate, also, for political reasons. The French basically didn’t want information in another language. But we had been working on periodicals, to give information to each other on periodicals issued in our countries. We had been doing a lot of work on automatic indexing and even manual indexing to try to set up type indexes so that the automatic indexing could be easier. Then the ICSU AB got a little sleepy.

:When I came from New York, eleven years after the UN [United Nations], I, of course, came back to the ICSU AB. I shook them up a little bit. I said, “Look, people, what have you done in ten years?” There were no changes. It was the same story and with the same talks, et cetera, for ten years. They recognized that more or less it was the same. But then, with the new people coming, the only problem I saw with ICSU AB—and, then, Marthe [Orfus], the secretary, was going to go, and someone else was going to take over the ''secretariat'' (office of the secretary)—maybe Barry Mahon. He was one of the candidates on the short list. If the secretariat goes to an American, then why have ICSU AB in any place? Let’s decide that NFAIS would be international. Anyway, this guy from INSPEC—I can’t remember the name— the young guy you saw in the picture, the blond, and myself, we were always invited to NFAIS. I am French; he was British; NFAIS is American.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When you look at the lists of the organizations at the meetings of NFAIS, most of
the European services are present.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, but that was not the case before. Then we wondered why to keep both. Of
course, ICSU AB was always an opportunity for the Chinese, the Taiwanese, the Japanese, and
the Russians to be in an international organization. Also, the ICSU proximity is very important
because the ICSU AB was a part of ICSU for a very long time. Now, they want to put it
together again.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|17}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When did they come apart? Why was ICSTI [International Council of Scientific and Technical Information] set up?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Because they considered that, they wanted not to have this very heavy shape of
ICSU, to have commercial organizations as members. The ICSU was not a scientific
organization with only scientists as members. For example, Elsevier [Inc.] couldn’t be a
member of ICSU AB and of ICSU. They were commercial. Also, because at that time, the
secretary general of ICSU AB wanted to be more independent. She didn’t want to have people
telling her what to do. Of course, the members of ICSU AB said, “All right, let’s go; let’s do it
separately.”
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Do you think, now, there is a move back to ICSU?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:This is what I was told. I saw the announcement for the job. They want to keep
their relations with ICSU.
{{Article body/End}}

===UNESCO, Programme général d'information===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:It’s interesting, this process of moving away and moving back. You described it in INIST, itself. Now, ICSU AB, and, of course, UNESCO PGI [United Nations Education, Scientific, and Cultural Organization’s Programme Générale d’Information] are being re-conceptualized, I understand.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Well, now, we’re writing a new program completely. We have done
information for all programs. Now it’s on the executive committee, and then it will go to the
general conference. Hopefully, before the end of the year, our new program will be adopted. I
am on the chair of that so I have been working very hard. [laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Can you tell me a little about the nature of the changes that are being suggested?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:To go a little bit broader, not to focus on small things. To change the focus to
new technologies and to try to put the new technology in an international context for developing
countries. Let’s say, the influence of information highways on the information world—the main
goal is to move from the traditional information that exists in the older places to transferring
information using new technologies. Of course, there are a lot of details there. But if you want
to have a new program, you go to the site, to the World Wide Web of UNESCO, and you can
have it. You have the text of the new program.
{{Article body/End}}
===Federation for Information and Documentation (FID)===
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|18}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other organization I’m wondering about is FID [Federation for Information
and Documentation]. I suppose the parallel organization is IFLA [International Federation of
Library Associations] in the library world. Could you speak about your experiences while
participating in these organizations?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: was a member of FID many years ago, and I don’t think it had an important
role in the past. Mostly because of the impact of the Russians. They were too static. I can say
that in Russian, myself! [laughter] The Russians wanted to have a kind of forum for the outside
world. They were doing certification, et cetera. I don’t know what they are doing now. Of
course, with Martha Stone, the new director, they could move somewhere. But very often, they
had very bad directors. You know, there was a Canadian at one time who was just a disaster. I
don’t remember his name. He was terrible. He didn’t do anything. Martha Stone wants to do
things. But, apart from the manifesto, they wrote lately, et cetera, I don’t see what they are
doing. I don’t think they have an impact on the real world of information or people really
working on information. Particularly because their representation is national. Nobody wanted
the countries to go. In France, nobody wanted to go to FID. They said, “We don’t have money
to spend for stupid things.”
:IFLA is different because IFLA is focused. IFLA is really focused on libraries. The
libraries recognize themselves in IFLA. I don’t know who recognizes itself in FID. That is a
problem with FID. I don’t know if they are going to continue or not. I just don’t know.
I am a member of their publications board, but they never ask me anything. I just have
my name on the publication. I once reviewed an article and suggested that they throw it away.
Maybe that was why they didn’t ask me anymore. [laughter] I have worked with FID as the
French representative and presented during some years, but we didn’t do anything. We were
going to the meetings; that’s all. No real work. Martha is very good. Maybe she could do
something, I don’t know. But it’s not so easy. You have to move people, and you have to know
who to move. I don’t know any important people in FID. Nobody important that is visible in
the information scene.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:In fact, some of the sorts of things that FID might well have done were probably
taken over and done better by ICSU AB, and now ICSTI with its broad representation.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:
I’m not sure they’re interested in the types of things that FID is doing. The
force and strength of ICSU AB, is that the directors who attend the meetings are the responsible
people. Then, at the meeting, they can say, “I will,” or “I won’t.” They are not going to say, “I
have to tell it to my government, to my country,” et cetera. I remember Dale Baker saying, “Oh,
no. We can’t!” [laughter] But we knew that if he said he’d do it; he’d do it. We had the
responsibility of what we were saying, as well as we were doing. That has made ICSU AB
really move. This is still the case. It is very important.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|19}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Many of the major positions in IFLA are held by people who actually have
authority to do things, too. That’s an interesting point.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:There are databases available in Germany through the German network. They
are available online through Questel, an international host. This was available in 1997. I have
been working lately with the European commission on a European project to create coordination
between the existing host computers, Questel, DIMDI, a Nordic host computer, a Swedish one,
and one other. This is to create the PASCAL bridges so that the user of DIMDI can access
PASCAL from the databases they don’t have. DIMDI has medicine, but if the databases didn’t
have it, they could access Questel with one simple password. They want more; they want to put
it on the internet just like that, without the host computer. I don’t know.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other part of making FRANCIS and PASCAL widely available is
overcoming the hegemony of the English.

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:How could you overcome the hegemony of the English? That’s absolutely
stupid. Two-thirds of the publications are in English. Let’s say, two-thirds of the publications
that count in the scientific world. But what do you want to do—translate them into French?
Look, I am for defending French. I don’t like when you are at an international meeting when
you have translation into English from French in the country. I always use French. I think it’s
normal. If we are in France, if there are translation services provided, I suppose they have been
provided for a reason. You can always express yourself much better in your own language than
in another language. I think it’s stupid for this snobbish attitude to speak English to continue.
But the reality is reality. The English word in information is the most important word. That’s
it. Why fight what exists? I don’t think it’s bad.
It’s not as if FRANCIS and PASCAL will be on the Internet and then English will not be
hegemonic. We would simply have a little bit more information in French, which could be all
right. But, anyway, if you go to the INIST site, you can have whatever you want.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Is the suggestion that it should be freely available?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. Again, I don’t know these people. I know only Jacques Le Maguer. I
don’t know the others. I never heard about them.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Well, I thought this was a very strange article. It seemed to be pushing a
particular point of view, very much against the idea that you spoke of, about the political move
to regionalization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The only guy who knows anything about that is Jacques Le Maguer. From what
I see, he now is working with L’Institut d’histoire du Temps Present. He has probably initiated
that. Which, in fact, is not a bad idea. Why not? But I think they also don’t know what they
are talking about. They have taken from papers some information—some good, some not. I
don’t know.
I would be very interested to know if my former deputy Francine Gourd read that—she
is probably retired now. But she was still working in 1997. She may have seen that.
{{Article body/End}}
[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organisations]]

Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organizations

2021-04-26T04:52:35Z

Jacques Ducloy: /* Conversation on Assorted Organizations */

{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Header}}
{{Wicri warning link}}
==Conversation on Assorted Organizations==
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|14}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Discussions about Euronet-Diane [Direct Information Access Network for Europe] began in the early 1970s, too, I think.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: It began after the resolution of the Council of Ministers in 1971 to create the European network. There was a committee, Comité Internationale pour la Documentation Scientifique et Technique,{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|15}} CIDST. We had a meeting of this committee almost every week. I was one of the French representatives; Jacques Michel was the other one. First, it was Jacques Delors; and then Jacques Michel. We tried to prepare a European information network. Then there were a lot of groups in every field—in medicine, in metallurgy, with Georges Anderla, who was the director at that time. I still see him.

[END OF TAPE, SIDE 2]

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: We were trying to implement this European network at a political level to create relationships between the countries. This was for the countries to organize and to cooperate better in different fields, and see if we could exchange information, set up databases, and control what the commission was doing. In fact, they were working in medicine, agriculture, and metallurgy. They took a lot of time. I think we have set up a kind of common European atmosphere to do that. But it was really political.

:We were not doing practical things; we were just discussing at political levels what the commission was trying to do. We were also working with automatic translations. An American system was implemented in the commission and we tried to adapt it. I don’t think we have achieved anything important, apart from the creation of this European group.
{{Article body/End}}
===ICSU AB’s collaborations with international organizations===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: You were also involved with the ICSU AB early on. Have you continued to be involved?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: I am an honorary fellow, but I don’t go to the meetings very much anymore. [laughter] I have left the ICSU AB, more or less. I still attended some NFAIS [National Federation of Abstracting and Indexing Societies] meetings, but more to meet old friends like Ed Kennedy and Dale [B. Baker] and so on. This year, in fact, I didn’t go because I was ill.
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:So, tell me your impressions of ICSU AB and what it’s been able to achieve. Is it just essentially a forum for discussion and debate?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. At the beginning, ICSU AB was a family, and in fact, it still is. Don’t forget, in the 1960s, there were very few scientific information centers. We were getting together maybe ten or fifteen people. We were the pioneers, people like Dale Baker and Phyllis Parkins. Wiederman from Germany. Sorokin from Russia. We were all trying to have the world recognize that scientific information is something; it’s a profession, it’s work, it’s a job. We did that quite successfully all together because we really were like a family, and we discussed everything. There was no competition. The competition started maybe a little bit later. My Miles-Conrad lecture at NFAIS gives the atmosphere of the thinking at that time (4).
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|16}}
:But, in fact, I believe that the ICSU AB created the profession. We created the profession from
scientists. That was the goal. Nobody was a librarian. We were all scientists. We wanted to
recognize that to process science one needed to be more than a librarian. The users are not the
normal users of a library. They’ll ask you more. That was the main goal at the beginning.
After that, we said, “How can we work together to make things better for our users?”
Then the difficulties started. How could you work with the Russians, with the Japanese?
We were each using our own language. The French researchers didn’t know enough English.
Researchers in physics, in chemistry, can use English, but go to medicine and just forget it.
Like the Medline Database—I remember, I brought home research in Medline to my husband.
He was a scientist, a politician doing political science. He would say, “What is this garbage?
What do you want me to do with it?” I left it on the top of our cupboard, and during six months,
he never touched it. Never. He said, “Bring me in some information that I can read.” That was
what most of the users were doing at that time. Now, it has changed with the Internet, et cetera.
You have to translate, also, for political reasons. The French basically didn’t want information
in another language. But we had been working on periodicals, to give information to each other
on periodicals issued in our countries. We had been doing a lot of work on automatic indexing
and even manual indexing to try to set up type indexes so that the automatic indexing could be
easier. Then the ICSU AB got a little sleepy.
:When I came from New York, eleven years after the UN [United Nations], I, of course,
came back to the ICSU AB. I shook them up a little bit. I said, “Look, people, what have you
done in ten years?” There were no changes. It was the same story and with the same talks, et
cetera, for ten years. They recognized that more or less it was the same. But then, with the new
people coming, the only problem I saw with ICSU AB—and, then, Marthe [Orfus], the
secretary, was going to go, and someone else was going to take over the secretariat (office of
the secretary)—maybe Barry Mahon. He was one of the candidates on the short list. If the
secretariat goes to an American, then why have ICSU AB in any place? Let’s decide that NFAIS would be international. Anyway, this guy from INSPEC—I can’t remember the name—
the young guy you saw in the picture, the blond, and myself, we were always invited to NFAIS.
I am French; he was British; NFAIS is American
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When you look at the lists of the organizations at the meetings of NFAIS, most of
the European services are present.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Yes, but that was not the case before. Then we wondered why to keep both. Of
course, ICSU AB was always an opportunity for the Chinese, the Taiwanese, the Japanese, and
the Russians to be in an international organization. Also, the ICSU proximity is very important
because the ICSU AB was a part of ICSU for a very long time. Now, they want to put it
together again.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|17}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:When did they come apart? Why was ICSTI [International Council of Scientific and Technical Information] set up?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Because they considered that, they wanted not to have this very heavy shape of
ICSU, to have commercial organizations as members. The ICSU was not a scientific
organization with only scientists as members. For example, Elsevier [Inc.] couldn’t be a
member of ICSU AB and of ICSU. They were commercial. Also, because at that time, the
secretary general of ICSU AB wanted to be more independent. She didn’t want to have people
telling her what to do. Of course, the members of ICSU AB said, “All right, let’s go; let’s do it
separately.”
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Do you think, now, there is a move back to ICSU?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:This is what I was told. I saw the announcement for the job. They want to keep
their relations with ICSU.
{{Article body/End}}
===UNESCO, Programme général d'information===
{{Article body/Begin}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:It’s interesting, this process of moving away and moving back. You described it in INIST, itself. Now, ICSU AB, and, of course, UNESCO PGI [United Nations Education, Scientific, and Cultural Organization’s Programme Générale d’Information] are being re-conceptualized, I understand.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:Well, now, we’re writing a new program completely. We have done
information for all programs. Now it’s on the executive committee, and then it will go to the
general conference. Hopefully, before the end of the year, our new program will be adopted. I
am on the chair of that so I have been working very hard. [laughter]
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Can you tell me a little about the nature of the changes that are being suggested?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:To go a little bit broader, not to focus on small things. To change the focus to
new technologies and to try to put the new technology in an international context for developing
countries. Let’s say, the influence of information highways on the information world—the main
goal is to move from the traditional information that exists in the older places to transferring
information using new technologies. Of course, there are a lot of details there. But if you want
to have a new program, you go to the site, to the World Wide Web of UNESCO, and you can
have it. You have the text of the new program.
{{Article body/End}}
===Federation for Information and Documentation (FID)===
{{Article body/Begin}}
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|18}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other organization I’m wondering about is FID [Federation for Information
and Documentation]. I suppose the parallel organization is IFLA [International Federation of
Library Associations] in the library world. Could you speak about your experiences while
participating in these organizations?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}: was a member of FID many years ago, and I don’t think it had an important
role in the past. Mostly because of the impact of the Russians. They were too static. I can say
that in Russian, myself! [laughter] The Russians wanted to have a kind of forum for the outside
world. They were doing certification, et cetera. I don’t know what they are doing now. Of
course, with Martha Stone, the new director, they could move somewhere. But very often, they
had very bad directors. You know, there was a Canadian at one time who was just a disaster. I
don’t remember his name. He was terrible. He didn’t do anything. Martha Stone wants to do
things. But, apart from the manifesto, they wrote lately, et cetera, I don’t see what they are
doing. I don’t think they have an impact on the real world of information or people really
working on information. Particularly because their representation is national. Nobody wanted
the countries to go. In France, nobody wanted to go to FID. They said, “We don’t have money
to spend for stupid things.”
:IFLA is different because IFLA is focused. IFLA is really focused on libraries. The
libraries recognize themselves in IFLA. I don’t know who recognizes itself in FID. That is a
problem with FID. I don’t know if they are going to continue or not. I just don’t know.
I am a member of their publications board, but they never ask me anything. I just have
my name on the publication. I once reviewed an article and suggested that they throw it away.
Maybe that was why they didn’t ask me anymore. [laughter] I have worked with FID as the
French representative and presented during some years, but we didn’t do anything. We were
going to the meetings; that’s all. No real work. Martha is very good. Maybe she could do
something, I don’t know. But it’s not so easy. You have to move people, and you have to know
who to move. I don’t know any important people in FID. Nobody important that is visible in
the information scene.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:In fact, some of the sorts of things that FID might well have done were probably
taken over and done better by ICSU AB, and now ICSTI with its broad representation.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:
I’m not sure they’re interested in the types of things that FID is doing. The
force and strength of ICSU AB, is that the directors who attend the meetings are the responsible
people. Then, at the meeting, they can say, “I will,” or “I won’t.” They are not going to say, “I
have to tell it to my government, to my country,” et cetera. I remember Dale Baker saying, “Oh,
no. We can’t!” [laughter] But we knew that if he said he’d do it; he’d do it. We had the
responsibility of what we were saying, as well as we were doing. That has made ICSU AB
really move. This is still the case. It is very important.
{{Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Page dec|19}}
;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: Many of the major positions in IFLA are held by people who actually have
authority to do things, too. That’s an interesting point.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:There are databases available in Germany through the German network. They
are available online through Questel, an international host. This was available in 1997. I have
been working lately with the European commission on a European project to create coordination
between the existing host computers, Questel, DIMDI, a Nordic host computer, a Swedish one,
and one other. This is to create the PASCAL bridges so that the user of DIMDI can access
PASCAL from the databases they don’t have. DIMDI has medicine, but if the databases didn’t
have it, they could access Questel with one simple password. They want more; they want to put
it on the internet just like that, without the host computer. I don’t know.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}: The other part of making FRANCIS and PASCAL widely available is
overcoming the hegemony of the English.

;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:How could you overcome the hegemony of the English? That’s absolutely
stupid. Two-thirds of the publications are in English. Let’s say, two-thirds of the publications
that count in the scientific world. But what do you want to do—translate them into French?
Look, I am for defending French. I don’t like when you are at an international meeting when
you have translation into English from French in the country. I always use French. I think it’s
normal. If we are in France, if there are translation services provided, I suppose they have been
provided for a reason. You can always express yourself much better in your own language than
in another language. I think it’s stupid for this snobbish attitude to speak English to continue.
But the reality is reality. The English word in information is the most important word. That’s
it. Why fight what exists? I don’t think it’s bad.
It’s not as if FRANCIS and PASCAL will be on the Internet and then English will not be
hegemonic. We would simply have a little bit more information in French, which could be all
right. But, anyway, if you go to the INIST site, you can have whatever you want.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Is the suggestion that it should be freely available?
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:No. Again, I don’t know these people. I know only Jacques Le Maguer. I
don’t know the others. I never heard about them.

;{{Smallcaps|Rayward}}:Well, I thought this was a very strange article. It seemed to be pushing a
particular point of view, very much against the idea that you spoke of, about the political move
to regionalization.
;{{Smallcaps|Dusoulier}}:The only guy who knows anything about that is Jacques Le Maguer. From what
I see, he now is working with L’Institut d’histoire du Temps Present. He has probably initiated
that. Which, in fact, is not a bad idea. Why not? But I think they also don’t know what they
are talking about. They have taken from papers some information—some good, some not. I
don’t know.
I would be very interested to know if my former deputy Francine Gourd read that—she
is probably retired now. But she was still working in 1997. She may have seen that.
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[[fr:Interview Dusoulier (2000) Rayward/Organisations]]